Anyone done the UKC protection (1) ? - Page 4

I totally disagree Tess. It IS far superior. Not ONLY do they test different things they test the normal schutzhund things. It is essentially the same routine with their practical things added in. This makes it superior. I did not say that the dog should not defend if a movement is threatening. I said that it must distinguish between a friendly greeting ie: a hand reaching out in a handshake directly after being sent to bite that same person. They do still have their equipment on. The friendly greeting that turns aggitated is the real test. A person can be angry and out of control throwing things, yelling, kicking things etc. But nothing is directed at the handler or the dog.  Thus it is not a direct threat to the dog and handler.  When it is threatening directly,  the dog is sent or is allowed to react. It does not discount the dog reacting if the handler is attacked and becomes disabled. ANY of these dogs would defend their handler. The difference is having confidance in the dog in any situation that comes up in everyday life.  A dog that would attack someone who raised a hand to wave at someone else or shake hands with the handler is an unsafe dog. Therefore it gives advocates against bite training a real foot hold in getting it banned. We don't want this and I am telling you straight up that MOST SchH3 dogs will not pass because of their training to be on the edge of being out of control. Of course ANY kind of title has to be trained for!!! It's silly not to think so. But the difference is this goes beyond Schutzhund.  An intelligent dog SHOULD know the difference between a threat and a friendly interchange. It does not mean the dog has to BE friendly. ie tail wagging and coming over for a pat... it means that he is not reacting unless there IS a real threat. It also does not mean that he is not ever watchful. They ARE. Go to a trial and see for yourself. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!
Debby

Debby, I will definitely check it out, but I simply cannot agree with this statement:

I am telling you straight up that MOST SchH3 dogs will not pass because of their training to be on the edge of being out of control.

Two main reasons: # 1, I simply do not believe it is true.  I believe that MOST dogs who are SchH3 have tremendous control, but that's ok, you and I can differ.  # 2, though, I think is more important.  IMHO, it's great that there are different dog sports for different people, but we are all dog people, and we need to stick together.  PETA and HSUS are more than ready and willing to eliminate all dog/people interaction.  I don't believe in doing/saying ANYthing to knock another dog sport no matter how much it is not for me.  So this is why I say I have watched a lot of SchH trials, from club level to the Masters Tournament to WUSV World Championships and I definitely feel confident in the control and reliability of SchH3 dogs overall and this being the case I think it is extremely harmful to ALL dog sports to have people posting implications of instability in these dogs.

As I said, JMHO.

Good luck and great sport with your dogs.  Don't forget, though, that PETA and HSUS and ALF make no distinction between SchH and UKC.  To them ALL animal use is bad, and they will use your words not only against SchH, but against UKC as well.

I have been in and around Schutzhund for more than 8 years.WUSV, National and Regional competitions included.  I have trained with some of the top handler/trainers in the USA. Yes, it is my perspective, but it comes from direct experience.  The over dependency on electric is part of the proof. I'm not saying that electric does not have it's place, but for some top handlers to have to "fry" a dog into submission and obedience is not dependable training. The dog is not working out of love and dedication to the handler, it's working because it knows it will be "fried" or put into submission by many other methods. As my current trainer says... "the dog MUST bring it to YOU".   Not be forced. There ARE many dependable Sch dogs out there and ones who ARE dedicated to their handler. So, it is not a slam to the Sport of Schutzhund as much as it is SOME "training" methods.  Yes, they work temporarily, but those dogs will not be dependabley "safe".
As EisenFaust says, the SDA allows and essentially asks the helper to literally TRY to chase the dog. Many different angles and serious threatening are all part of makeing it a better test. It's really all about makeing it more real life than just a routine. It's not perfect, but it comes alot closer to real life than Schutzhund. Don't get me wrong, I am not abandoning Schutzhund either, but this is now my passion because of all of the "real life" things added in over and above the Schutzhund routine. It is an attempt to make it what Schutzhund was in the beginning.... a true test of the intelligence, trainability, temperament, drives and confidence of a dog on a practical level.
As far as the amimal rights people go... it really boils down to whether you can prove that your dog is safe in public. All of the other issues they try to tackel will carry over to all training across the board.
In summary : Bite training is the most important issue to protect for us because it is the most threatened and the SDA can PROVE that their training and titled dogs are safe in any situation. Schutzhund can't, but that is not a fault with the sport as much as it is training.
Cheers to training safe protective REAL dogs!
Debby

The thing that I really enjoy about this sport is that it is trying to accomplish something besides making people momey with titles and breedings. I enjoy the fact that if your dog earns these titles it is Most likely going to protect you in the real world. Also SDA did not put in all the Gimmicks as I call them. You know the dog in a down under distractions like two decoys in full gear playing catch with a sleeve, or doing OB with a decoy on the field throwing around a rubber chicke. I am not attacking any other sports or refering to any in particular, I just dont see the need for all that stuff.

Am I the only one who watched the trial video of the dobe?  There is a lot of macho talk on this thread about the helper's job is to try and run the dog.  Honestly, this looked like practice day at the Sieger Show.

Scott B

BoyDerDog,
The problem with those videos is that this dog sport is new and their are some growing pains. I can only compare it to some of the early sch videos. Compare to todays competition dogs their is no comparison. Not making excuses just stating some of the issues that are being worked out. I would also say that in every sport you have the good and the bad.

I have been involved with the SDA organization for about 3 years now.  I have earned several titles with the organization.  My thoughts are . . . the trials were set up and intended to test the dog for true protection work.  The SDA organization feels a protection dog has to demonstrate good control.  I am not going to talk down Schutzund or any of the other dog sports.   I have nothing but admiration in watching a top dog perform well in the sport it has been trained in.  As with any protection dog sport, the abilities of the decoy working the trial will vary.  I can say with the SDA trials that I have participated in, the decoys truly tested the dog.  I would encourage anyone that has interest in Schutzund or any of the other dog sport organizations to check out a UKC / SDA trial.  I know with the recent decoy seminars that were held in TN and FL, the decoys must be able to possess the ability to maintain a very threatening demenor and have the atheletic ability when driving a dog and they do just that - drive the dog and not drag it.  
We are having a trial in Chattanooga on April 17 & 18 and would love for everyone to come and check us out.  Also, we will be at the UKC / SDA Premier on June 12, 13, and 14 and again invite everyone to come and check us out.  Also, you can check out our website at: www.sdachattanooga.com