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by Jeff Oehlsen on 27 January 2009 - 02:01
Quote: My question is this do trainers rely on too much drive now a days?
What do you think it is that makes a dog work ??? It is drive. Of course it is easier to teach a high drive dog than a low drive dog. Why beat your head against a wall if you do not have to ???
What do you think it is that makes a dog work ??? It is drive. Of course it is easier to teach a high drive dog than a low drive dog. Why beat your head against a wall if you do not have to ???
by Jeff Oehlsen on 27 January 2009 - 02:01
Quote:
I own one of the solid dogs that can come right in after traning and snuggle with the kids. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. He's not crazy out on the field in regards to flying into the helper but he bites full and hard everytime
Buko is an idiot in drive he has so much, and he will snuggle with you after the bitework. He will roll in his back and squirm around in the grass he is so happy to get scrubbed. Need to actually see some better dogs.LOL
I own one of the solid dogs that can come right in after traning and snuggle with the kids. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. He's not crazy out on the field in regards to flying into the helper but he bites full and hard everytime
Buko is an idiot in drive he has so much, and he will snuggle with you after the bitework. He will roll in his back and squirm around in the grass he is so happy to get scrubbed. Need to actually see some better dogs.LOL
by 4pack on 27 January 2009 - 03:01
Jeff, does Buko have middle finger drive or is it just fuck off Jeff drive? LOL
by Get A Real Dog on 27 January 2009 - 04:01
Wow, got into this one a little late. So many points to touch on.........
1) I say there is no such thing as "too much drive" you could say there is too much drive for an individual handler or application of dog as it relates to it's purpose, but not "too much drive". You only have handlers/trainers who do not know how to channel and/or cap the drive, or a dog with too much drive for the environment in which it is working or living.
2)I hate the term nerves. It means nothing and adds to the confusion. What most people are talking about, when they say nerves, is stress thresholds. Thresholds correlate to the dog’s ability to withstand stimulus. A dog with a high stress threshold is less likely to see and thus react to stimulus.
AMEN CHRIS!!!! This is a whole other discussion but I hate it when people automatically assume "nervy" is a bad thing. "Strong nerve" is a GSD thing. Very rarely do I hear a Malinios person say....That dog has bad nerve, or that dog has "nerves of steel"
3) In my opinion drive makes a dog MUCH easier to train. But to the person who does not like or know how to deal with huge amounts of drive, the opposite is true. How is something that makes a dog easier to train a bad thing?
I have a new little Mal who is quite an interesting little dog. I have only had her 2 weeks so I am still getting a feel for her. She is a spaz and has loads of prey drive, would not want her in the house, but settles down nicely in a kennel or crate. She is a kind of dog that is very re-active and will hesitate or appear "nervy" when exposed to something new. If something startles her, she recovers immediately and once she is shown something, she has no problem with it. For example, I had her jump up onto my work-bench in the garage. It has the particle board shelves that will move, and it had a bunch of tools on it. The first time she jumped up on it, she freaked out a little bit. The next time, she jumped up on it with no problem, and now she jumps up on it as soon as she goes in the garage.
I have only worked her in bite work 2X's. She does worry a little bit and is what some would call "nervy". However she is 16 months, has never been worked, and was never off the breeders property. I see her as not the strongest dog in the world, but has so much drive it should get her over any issues she may have.
Cont
1) I say there is no such thing as "too much drive" you could say there is too much drive for an individual handler or application of dog as it relates to it's purpose, but not "too much drive". You only have handlers/trainers who do not know how to channel and/or cap the drive, or a dog with too much drive for the environment in which it is working or living.
2)I hate the term nerves. It means nothing and adds to the confusion. What most people are talking about, when they say nerves, is stress thresholds. Thresholds correlate to the dog’s ability to withstand stimulus. A dog with a high stress threshold is less likely to see and thus react to stimulus.
AMEN CHRIS!!!! This is a whole other discussion but I hate it when people automatically assume "nervy" is a bad thing. "Strong nerve" is a GSD thing. Very rarely do I hear a Malinios person say....That dog has bad nerve, or that dog has "nerves of steel"
3) In my opinion drive makes a dog MUCH easier to train. But to the person who does not like or know how to deal with huge amounts of drive, the opposite is true. How is something that makes a dog easier to train a bad thing?
I have a new little Mal who is quite an interesting little dog. I have only had her 2 weeks so I am still getting a feel for her. She is a spaz and has loads of prey drive, would not want her in the house, but settles down nicely in a kennel or crate. She is a kind of dog that is very re-active and will hesitate or appear "nervy" when exposed to something new. If something startles her, she recovers immediately and once she is shown something, she has no problem with it. For example, I had her jump up onto my work-bench in the garage. It has the particle board shelves that will move, and it had a bunch of tools on it. The first time she jumped up on it, she freaked out a little bit. The next time, she jumped up on it with no problem, and now she jumps up on it as soon as she goes in the garage.
I have only worked her in bite work 2X's. She does worry a little bit and is what some would call "nervy". However she is 16 months, has never been worked, and was never off the breeders property. I see her as not the strongest dog in the world, but has so much drive it should get her over any issues she may have.
Cont
by Get A Real Dog on 27 January 2009 - 04:01
Every dog has a breaking point. Every dog. High, high prey drive is what usually gets dogs through when the going gets tough. When the shit hits the fan, the prey drive or prey aggression/fight drive is what gets them through.
I myself, like dogs most others do not. I like a dog that is a hyper spaz. One with so much prey drive they can hardly see straight. One that is a "little nervy" because worked right the "nerve" can bring aggression and suspicion. I like a dog that is stable enough around people, but when fired up is just a little not right in the head, and has a mean streak. Yes there are dogs like that out there. Yes there are dogs with tons of drive, a little nutty, have a mean streak, that are still safe to be around people. You just have to be a responsible handler.
It all boils down to breeding, buying, and training the kind of dogs YOU like.....
I like my dogs like I like my women. Small, fast, and a little crazy.
I myself, like dogs most others do not. I like a dog that is a hyper spaz. One with so much prey drive they can hardly see straight. One that is a "little nervy" because worked right the "nerve" can bring aggression and suspicion. I like a dog that is stable enough around people, but when fired up is just a little not right in the head, and has a mean streak. Yes there are dogs like that out there. Yes there are dogs with tons of drive, a little nutty, have a mean streak, that are still safe to be around people. You just have to be a responsible handler.
It all boils down to breeding, buying, and training the kind of dogs YOU like.....
I like my dogs like I like my women. Small, fast, and a little crazy.
by EisenFaust on 27 January 2009 - 04:01
TDC,
Like others have posted on the thread too much drive is subjective, to me I may be able and like a dog with high drives to someone else they may not like that. My opinion is this in some very young dogs who have lacked socialization, or experiences can be overcome, but bad nerves can only be masked or hidden by drive. I have seen dogs that on the field or when in drive look great the minute the dog is not in drive and in new situations or new people you will see the nerve problem.
I have mentioned before what I look for but here goes. I look at a pup I want to see the desire to play, which one is the first one to come out and see who is their, the one who wants to bite, but most important is the one who wants to be with me the person. I also look at pack insticts dominance, aggression and so on.
Like other people have put it what I look for in a pup may not be the same that I would recommend to a novice or strictly a family pet. I am a firm believer that you can find a job for every dog and with all kinds of drives, just have to make sure that the dog and drives match the work. Cool thing about this post is getting all the different opinions...
Like others have posted on the thread too much drive is subjective, to me I may be able and like a dog with high drives to someone else they may not like that. My opinion is this in some very young dogs who have lacked socialization, or experiences can be overcome, but bad nerves can only be masked or hidden by drive. I have seen dogs that on the field or when in drive look great the minute the dog is not in drive and in new situations or new people you will see the nerve problem.
I have mentioned before what I look for but here goes. I look at a pup I want to see the desire to play, which one is the first one to come out and see who is their, the one who wants to bite, but most important is the one who wants to be with me the person. I also look at pack insticts dominance, aggression and so on.
Like other people have put it what I look for in a pup may not be the same that I would recommend to a novice or strictly a family pet. I am a firm believer that you can find a job for every dog and with all kinds of drives, just have to make sure that the dog and drives match the work. Cool thing about this post is getting all the different opinions...
by 4pack on 27 January 2009 - 04:01
Well you know I totally don't agree. A non spaztic dog can have enough drive or fight in them to get through whatever you can throw at em. I sure as shit don't wanna live with a dog like you descreibe! My dog doesn't have an ounce of "mean" in him but you come stare him down, you'll see the shit hit the fan. A confident dog doesn't need a missfiring brain to get it through. You seem to be talking gimmicks. Why settle for the "freak" when there are plenty of nice dogs out there that are "balanced".
by VonIsengard on 27 January 2009 - 04:01
Jeff- so are you saying no dog ever pleases their handler out of love and respect for them? Of course a dog knows its going to get a reward, but I think a dog should have some desire to please their handler on a personal level. There is a difference between a dog that works for itself and a dog that works for its handler. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Gustav, the kind of dogs you are describing sound right up my alley. I was born a few decades too late, I think.
Gustav, the kind of dogs you are describing sound right up my alley. I was born a few decades too late, I think.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 27 January 2009 - 14:01
Quote: Jeff, does Buko have middle finger drive or is it just fuck off Jeff drive? LOL
All of the above probably.
Quote: Jeff- so are you saying no dog ever pleases their handler out of love and respect for them? Of course a dog knows its going to get a reward, but I think a dog should have some desire to please their handler on a personal level.
They work for rewards. I used to want to think like that, but it is the reward. Love and respect are kinda anthropomophic terms, but it is pretty much the reward. If you use a lot of compulsion, they work to avoid the bad thing that is gonna happen. The more I have learned about dogs, the less "Walt Disney" they become. I think that a dog at a basic level can do things and be rewarded through some sort of pack thing, but it is still a reward, not love or respect.
Chris, really nice post. Should be mandatory reading for new people to get a little perspective.
All of the above probably.
Quote: Jeff- so are you saying no dog ever pleases their handler out of love and respect for them? Of course a dog knows its going to get a reward, but I think a dog should have some desire to please their handler on a personal level.
They work for rewards. I used to want to think like that, but it is the reward. Love and respect are kinda anthropomophic terms, but it is pretty much the reward. If you use a lot of compulsion, they work to avoid the bad thing that is gonna happen. The more I have learned about dogs, the less "Walt Disney" they become. I think that a dog at a basic level can do things and be rewarded through some sort of pack thing, but it is still a reward, not love or respect.
Chris, really nice post. Should be mandatory reading for new people to get a little perspective.
by jennie on 27 January 2009 - 16:01
Really? Can you point these breeders out? Can you name ONE GSD that is working anywhere in the US or EU that does not have a sport dog in the first two or three generations? How about one that does not have a sport titled parent?
Many have some form of sporttitle in 2-3 generations, but not all. There are several that don´t have a sporttitled parent. This policedog has no sporttitle in many generations, from military breeding programm,
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/426635.html
I don´t think a dog can have to much drive, as long as it has the nerves to keep it all together.
Many have some form of sporttitle in 2-3 generations, but not all. There are several that don´t have a sporttitled parent. This policedog has no sporttitle in many generations, from military breeding programm,
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/426635.html
I don´t think a dog can have to much drive, as long as it has the nerves to keep it all together.
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