Showlines + Wkg lines- Done more and done well - Page 4

Let's not be so critical. I have been researching a lot of pedigrees lately, focusing on extended families of "famous" dogs recent and past. Its amazing how many entire litters, LARGE litters, from parents and breeders who have produced some really excellent dogs before and/or since, contained absolutely nothing of merit on record. They sure looked good on paper! So which one of us wants to go tell those often extremely successful breeders that those litters should never have been bred in the first place? They would probably agree in some cases, but I seriously doubt they would appreciate the reminder!

One of the things I look very closely at when I look at a pedigree (and select/recommend breeding stock) is consistency of production within immediate family, especially the FEMALE line, but also the male. How many dogs from moms and grandmas and great grandmas litters did... what? When I see a dog from a litter that features a high number of titled, Koer'd dogs with good hips and elbows, (especially the females) I get excited for the future. When I see a whole line of dogs, with one really good dog out of a large litter, none of the rest having managed to make it to the Korung, I... wonder.

I will go into some detail of one of the top females who springs to mind, still found in many top pedigrees, the great Jana von der Maineiche, in a later post.

SS

Dear Autobahn,

There is only so much time in a day. I thought it might be nice to discuss successes rather than failures. Besides, the definition of the term "failure" is extremely subjective, even in this forum.

SS

Silbersee wrote: And if it does not work out with this litter, I will try these kind of combinations again. If more people would go for it, we would not have so many problems in our breed. Chris Okay, so say this litter does not work out. What happens to those pups? You say you will keep trying these combinations. You just want to keep on producing Shepherds that maybe should not have been born in the first place? It seems like you would be adding a lot of dogs to the already over populated breed in 'hopes' of getting an over average working/show line mix. Anyone see the point I am trying to make?

Autobahn, I have no idea who you are since you are conveniently hiding behind that weird screen name of yours. But it seems very obvious that you have a beef with me, because this is not the first time I had to endure your snippy remarks. You are probably somebody who we have met in the past? Did my husband not handle a dog for you at a show or not travel to tattoo your litter? Did I not sell a puppy to you or answer an inquiry in a timely manner? Why don't you just come out and say what it is. You accuse me of adding to the dog overpopulation by breeding a litter out of two top producing dogs? I am a small hobby breeder with an average of two or three litters a year. All my dogs are titled, breed surveyed and V-rated. At least half, if not more of my litters were sired in Germany. I always sell my puppies for under $ 2,000, so I certainly do not make any profit off my dogs, since I truly believe that even breeders using titled dogs are only backyard breeders if they continuously breed their own male and females. In addition, I take my homebred dogs back and rehome them if needed. Even though we have been showline fanciers for many years, we have been very open minded towards the developing problems in our breed. That is why we are doing these kind of litters. But it should not take a rocket scientist to figure out that success can only come when you start out with the best possible odds. To take a couple of dogs out of different lines out of a whim and "throw" them together will certainly not work, especially since they have no genetics behind them. You will get all kinds of unexpected problems if you don't do your homework - over and undersize, light eyes, weird colors, no or too much angulation, to name just a few. To minimize these occurances, it helps to do your homework. And I believe that we did just this (we - us, our friends in Germany and Arko's owner who has a keen interest in that litter) and I wonder how they feel when I tell them that they are adding to the overpopulation of GSDs here. On the other hand, both sides complain about shortcomings in our breed but not coming up with options to fix it does not help matters either. So, I truly fail to see the point you are trying to make!!! And btw, if you are insinuating that I cull my litters because the puppies do not live up to my expectations (which are admittedly quite high) you are sadly mistaken. And with that being said, I am leaving this discussion. It is really preposterous, on this board there are people who breed with no titles, no health certifications, under age dogs etc., solely basing their so called breeding program on the reputation of some dogs which happen to be in the pedigree, but that does not matter. Only personal agendas and vendettas are fought here. No wonder that more and more people are disappearing.

Shelley, you are right. But I invite any of these armchair breeders to show us all and do it in a better way!

Liz and Brady Bee, thank you for your nice encouraging remarks, especially also under Chuckie's and Onyx' comments. It is truly appreciated. I will post photos and updates on my homepage and/or on our own GSD discussion board, not here anymore. I have been told numerous times by friends to stay off here and have now learned my lesson.

Regar

What Chris said. 

SS

Chris,  I am sorry to read that you will not be contributing anymore. I am very interested in the breeding of show X work. It is something I look to do in the future, once I have more information. I was really hoping your experience and knowledge in this area would be something I could learn from. So, I for one, am very disappointed that you will not be contributing.

I have to agree with DeesWolf, Ihave always found your posts very informative and enjoy reading what you have to say. One of the few here who actually knows what they are talking about. I like people who talk straight and say it how it is. I for one will be visiting your site more often, good luck and keep up the good work Chris. liz

To Autobahn,  The reality is no matter how MUCH planning goes into a litter it is still a crap shoot. Some combos work some don't. Like Chris said you try to better your odds by starting with good stock. A good breeder breeds to improve the breed and is responsible in finding the right homes for the puppies WHATEVER their strengths and weaknesses are. They also understand that in any litter there is always a range of ability and structure and not every puppy is a world class dog and they are prepared with a range of homes. As SS noted how you define success and or failure covers much territory. Perhaps someone like Chris has a goal of a V on both ends ( in show and in work). Have they failed with a SG dog that V's in Sch or a V dog that SG's in Sch?  You would probably say yes. I would say they are making progress and have learned new information and both dogs are dogs to be proud of as well as any siblings who are sound companions enjoying a great relationship with their owner and working up to their ability whether it be in schutzhund, agility, obedience,SAR, K9 work or herding. There is not one path for all and success can be found in many places.

Here is a saying for you to contemplate since you are so concerned with the dogs that are not the stars - "If the WORST puppy of your last litter is no better than the worst puppy of your first litter then you have made no real progress"