Q Man- Backyard breeding??? - Page 4

Maybe you need to spend more time training your own dogs instead of pulling other people down.

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Dutch Boy, this isnt a personal attack against you, but i think you have to have a more valid reason to post a thread regarding somebodies breeding on a public forum for everybody to see. I can understand what your saying as far as Q-Man not titling his dogs, but at the end of the day, whether he planned on doing so or he didnt, its not the end of the world. If people buy dogs from him and are happy with them, thats great, if not they will not go and buy dogs from him again.

Hello,

       I think this will always be a debate throughout time and in the 17 years I have been involved in the breed the arguments haven’t changed much but heres my thoughts. First of all I am not a breeder or top competitor but I have been training and have been involved in the breed for many years. I have owned dogs from untitled parents, titled parents, one titled parent and one not titled and I have owned both show and working dogs. Schutzhund of course is not a guarantee of workability passed to offspring, its a test of that individual dog strengths and weaknesses yes weaknesses because every dog has them if we like to admit it or not. A good breeders job is to take two dogs and look at their strengths but more so their weaknesses and see if breeding these two dogs will improve the next generation, a good breeder must not fool them self’s by taking a dog that may have serious faults and try to breed it in hopes they will just go away. I often compare it to VA dogs, if you take two VA dogs and breed them together your not going to be guaranteed all VA offspring, yes your puppies may come out closer to the TYPE you are breeding for but there is no guarantee based on that stamp of VA. A Schutzhund title is much the same, it does not guarantee that the puppies will all be top competitors or be good police service dogs. Now on the flip side of that, would I much rather buy from a litter where both parents are titled and V rated?, you better believe it because although that  Sch mark at the end of the name does not ensure breedabilty it does tell me that, that dog has a decent temperament and drive to be granted that title. Now of course I am sure there are dogs that are awarded that title who don't deserve it and they received that title at a trial that was held in the dark so to say, but I am referring to the majority of dogs who go out and rightfully earn that title. Now do I think a litter born from untitled parents is worthy of being called "back yard", no not necessarily but I personally feel that we have the dogs that we have today, talking about the dogs with good drives, good nerves and sound structure because of this sport and every puppy born further and further away from that goal is getting closer and closer to the drive, temperament and structure of its distant relatives in the AKC. WAIT don’t hang me out to dry because I mentioned something about the AKC standard and breed type, I am not putting the dogs down its not my right to say that somebody’s dogs are bad because they are bred a certain way, but I will say that a large percent of dogs are just a glimmer of what “in my option” a german shepherd should be and thats based on drive, structure & temperament.

Jason

www.prodogz.com

I prefer a post to not single out or name a kennel or breeder as this is not productive.

I looked at the ad and this is line breeding on Orry which to me is the all time greatest working lines ever out of Europe.

This is also from a Zidane son currently one of the top producing males in the world. A Zidane puppy is 1,500 here so at 800.00 with these  bloodlines offered is a steal for quality.

On the untitled vs titled a old agrument of course titles are a measure for the breed for suitable dogs but my best female now retired was untitled and she was breedworthy. She has produced many titled offspring to date with more upcoming and Police dogs as well as a alternate to the 2008 WUSV team so this is proof that titles are not everything. I have seen Sch3 females who are not breedworthy as well so again judge the dog you are breeding soley on the dog.

I like to debate but to single out a kennel/breeder is unfair if you do not like what they are breeding dont buy there is the best policy. I have never felt the need to discredit another kennel but to try and improve what I do and if I am producing well it will show in resutls simple as that..

Marlene

Quiz???----If the dog is pretty, weak, well trained and titled, (as many showline dogs are), when bred; what characteristics out of the1) pretty,2) weak,3) well trained, and4) titles, will the dog pass to the puppies???? Hint,Hint, things not genetic will not pass to puppies.........I would take a puppy out of that breeding also.....anybody knocking that breeding and they HAVE NOT seen the two dogs involved are forming opinions on a lack of information of what the dogs will pass and basing their opinion on items that the dogs will NOT pass......we got things backward again!!

Are titles and breed surveys everything? NO! Are they important? YES! In the end-what does one want? A healthy family or personal companion, a sport competition dog, or a conformation champion? All three (3) types rolled into one (1)? If one wants a decent and healthy companion animal-what do any parents' titles mean as long as they and their offspring conform to the F.C.I. physical and temperament standard?

If one's goal is to purchase a puppy and take him all the way to the BSZS VA level then it is important to follow the S.V.'s protocol-that is just the way it is. Why would it bother me to breed a pair of dogs who are not titled, but who are healthy, from healthy ancestry, and who both have correct temperaments and conform to the entire F.C.I. standard? Does that alone make me a "backyard breeder"? I do not think so. If that is the sole qualifying trait of a backyard breeder, then I, as others am guilty as charged. And of course it is not. If the dogs are a healthy and correct pair and both produce healthy offspring-what does it matter as long as potential buyers are not being misled?

If the intent is to sell offspring from untitled parents as decent companion dogs of correct conformation, then no one is being duped. Now, if such puppies were promoted as "Future BSZS Winners", "Future WUSV Champions", etc. then one had better be able to back that up. And of course that cannot be done unless the protocol is satisfied.

Let me place this in a different way. The two (2) times in my life that I was most disappointed with a male puppy was when a purchased one from the breeding of a VA male x a V bitch. Fate dealt me a very bad hand each time. We must remind ourselves that there are no guarantees with living things-only high hopes.

But the standards and protocols exist for a reason-a very important reason. There has to be an established benchmark for our breed, regardless of the perhaps maligned way the F.C.I. standard is interpreted by the S.V. and the A.K.C.. The maintenance of our breed is just like any ongoing production of high-quality items-when questions or doubt arise one must refer to the written standard. 

Best Regards,

Bob-O

I've seen both of these dogs personally.  I have not seen the Dam do any work.(Not saying she hasn't, just haven't seen it myself) I have seen the sire and the quality of his working ability. Good obedience and tough in the bite work. I've never seen him track but most Zidane offspring seem to take to in naturaaly. He is a  very nice dog with great drives dark coloration and a masculine look.  In my opinion he should have,or should I say, could have been titled long ago. I know that is what his owner wanted, but I don't know his current circumstances or plans in that regard. It is his dog, time and money.

I too have seen both of these dogs personally, They are amazing dog. And as to not having a helper. I have caught the sire to this litter on the sleeve and it about took me down. His sire is a powerful, stong dog, with probably the best working ability that i have seen. I have not been around the GSD community all my life but i have put in some time here. I purchased a dog from a litter with a SCH3 and SCH1 female. My dog is difficult to work with. He is two and i have trouble with him focusing. But he is too a powerful dog. I wouldn't buy a dog if i didn't like the dog and see the dog personally, I don't feel as though a title is the most important thing when if comes to having a dog. There is the old saying if i put poop in a bag with a title on it, would you buy it? I just feel as though everyone should have a choice in titles or not, and if you chose to have your dogs untitled than so be it.  If the dog satisfies your needs that you have not made a mistake.

Daniel