Kaleef dogs - Page 4

Jimmie initially learned to handle GSD's by attending the German Sieger and watching how those dogs were presented. Evidentally he revised those methods to conform to the AKC style of dog handling. His father was a long time dog breeder too, forget the breed, not GSD's I think. Anyway, Jimmie was raised in a dog family and learned the ropes early on. He paid his dues and was certainly not an over-night wonder.

In every breed there are handlers who will always win because of who they are, not because of the quality of their dogs. This is not confined to AKC shows, it happens at the German Sieger, the US Sieger and NASS as well as local SV style shows.  I dare say that SV shows are even more political than AKC shows since the judges usually know all the handlers, they are permitted to associate with them before and during the judging, have the catalog in front of them so know the owner and breeder of every dog they pass on and team colors and names are allowed in the ring. These things are all forbidden at AKC shows. Doublers are also factored into the SV show equation. A bad or unknown doubler usually means a poor placement.  No doublers allowed at AKC shows.

I know AKC show handlers who could push a dog around the ring in a wheelbarrow and win under certain judges.  However, if one only shows top notch dogs,  watches how pros like Jimmie present dogs to the judges and picks their judges wisely, it is certainly possible to handle you own dogs and do well at AKC shows. Can that be said about SV shows? BTW, OGBS, most of us who show in conformation know to not really take wins too seriously or we are fooling ourselves. The judges might not always recognize the best dogs, but any breeder worth his or her salt will know . Most of us think of conformation more as a fun thing than the real deal. The downside of conformation is those who don't know the breed depend too heavily on the results when planning litters. The tail wags the dog

I myself now prefer the SV style showline GSD. However I have seen some very nice Am lines dogs too. 

I agree with most of what you said, Blitzen, but not on double handling. In AKC all breed shows there's  not much double handling. But in GSD specialty shows, the sky is the limit! I have been nearly run down at the ringside by double handlers with bells, whistles, squeaky toys, clickers, etc. Anything goes. Some say the AKC has simply given up on the GSD crowd. As long as it doesn't happen at all-breed shows, the AKC turns a blind eye. People still move around outside the ring while their dog is in the ring at all breed shows, they just don't make noise and they try to by somewhat surreptitious about it.

I personally prefer German showlines, although I do like some American breeders dogs. I am too old and unhealthy to deal with a high drive working line GSD, although if I were younger and healthier I'd probably have one.

Double handling is allowed at Specialty Shows and futurities

As far as Kaleef dogs, the OP mentioned, there are many of Kaleef dogs in the gene pool up here in the  American GSD show dog s Minnesota.  My general observation of their structure is yes, strong in the front, but weak in the rear.  Can't always see it in the show ring,  But I have seen it during jumping and herding.  Too much length in body and not as angulated as some lines, but substantial angulation.

I was  almost mowed down myself at NASS a few years ago when I stupidly stood in the doubler's lane.  My first SV style show. You can bet I won't do that again .

Jimmy credits himself with shutting off the importation of german imports back in the sixties.  He was into them at first and handled some, but saw the quality becoming very poor as the german breeders were dumping their defective dogs on naive American GSDCA show folks.  He was the top handler (had a gift for making dogs look their best) and folks flocked around him because he could pick winners in young dogs and help folks select and buy winners.  He always only showed good looking good moving dogs and the judges always gave the dogs he handled a lot of attention.  He would evaluate folks dogs for free and was usually 100% correct in determining their show potential.  If he decided to handle them, he would finish them. After a while he started telling the top American breeders and show folks, hey let's stop importing these faulty german dogs and breed our own.  We can do better.  Many tears later it was rumored that he told some close associates that he was sorry for taking the American dogs too far down the wrong path to weak feet, weak temperament, lack of sex type, weak bone, overangulation, etc.  He selected "sight for sore eyes" (Dallas) as the GSD he thought would make up for all these problems and take the breed on the right trackl back to quality.  Dallas was definitely the first real quality american shepherd in a long time and produced less problems than most (good bone, good feet, good color, improved temperament, better proportions, etc.).  Rumor is that Jimmy has another ASD he will be promoting that he thinks will fix the american breed even more.  We shall see.  I'll stay with west german SL or WL GSDs since that is what I prefer. 

One thing for sure, there were a fair number of very excellent GSDs shown in the GSDCA showring back in the sixties.  Many were half german import and some 100% german import.  In most cases the temperament was good.  Then Lance of Fran Jo came along and he was a geat dog (sound mentally, very correct, except for one missing pre-molar). Problem was that he was a real producer and because of that was seriously over used, thus establishing some serious deficiencies in the ASD breed.   Imports like the sable Axel Poldihaus were georgeous, but axel was a spook and produced either hard tough dogs or spooks like him, one way or the other.  Probably the most beautiful import was Ulk Wikingerblut, but he produced almost all monos or coats and soft ears that wouldn't stand up.   He was as good a GSD as there ever was, darned near unbeatable (owned by Ralph Roberts in CA).  Probably the most beautiful ASD was Hollamor's Judd, black and red, beutiful coat, correct conformation and movement.  But he had one big problem (he was a raving spook).  When bred he produced a lot of crazy dogs and spooks with one cocked ear each, bu also a few very hard correct dogs with good ears. His father Yoncalla's Mike was very correct and a great looking ASD.

Preston, that goes to show that we have probably never ever been sold the best from Germany. Almost makes me think they don't want us to suceed here in the US without their continual stream of imports. 

I think Jimmie had a great idea to improve the breed from within and stop importing so many dogs.  Many other breeds have done exactly that. It is a mission that demands a very strong long-term plan and a lot of cooperation from breeders in the US. I don't see that ever happening, do you? Most dog breeders want instant gratification and aren't willing to plan ahead 3 or more generations. They want it all and they want it now so breed to the Seiger regardless of whether or not the pedigrees and phenotypes are compatable.

Hadn't heard about Jimmie's new dog, I'll be sure to watch for him. I hope he's as good as Dallas, maybe a Dallas son or g-son?

If I may butt in here, Preston and Blitzen, I have a hard time seeing the breed in the US improving from within simply because breeders won't wait. They want that GV in the next litter, not 9 - 15 years down the road after establishing a correct phenotype. And the problem is complicated here by the fact that there is no ZW or breedwardens. Not that the breedwardens always do a good job but it's better than not having them. Having said that, I do know of some American breeders who do try to breed for correct type every time. The litters are pretty variable though. Genetics is a closed book to some.

I know I saw a recent photo of Moses with a young dog somewhere....can't find it now of course.

Sam, good post.  There are always a few ASD breeders that march to their own tune and breed nice looking, well balanced very correctly conformed ASDs, but these usually only van win in the small all breed shows occasionally.  Typically those that breed ASDs for the standard cannot ever win in the GSDCA specialty shows.  Most of those that win show serious gait flaws under 1/1000 sec frames.  Most specialty ting judging for GSDCA shows is done on a tight lead which covers many serious faults. Unless a dog moves loose lead one cannot be sure what movement is really like. Without a trained eye or slo mo, many seem great and correct side gaiters but really have incorrect front range of motion.  They lift and hold the front while their long stroking long lower thigh step croup sickle hocked rear propels the dog up and forward like a big spring.  Good for 2-3 times around the ring, then the dog is exhausted.  The long backs absorb too much power and make the dogs inefficient. But their are exceptions.  Last year GV Army was much better than most (by far the best mover) and is relatively short backed, but still not my type of dog for a number of reasons.  I strongly prefer correct W. german SL or WL GSDs that are good enough to breed survey at KK1 and go V and then even better than most who do according to my own specs (rigid interpretation of the standard).  Folks need to read, study and memorize the standard and yes even WL or Sch enthusiasts (most don't take the time).   From my perspective one of the greatest WL GSDs in the last decade was Ellute Mohnweise (awesome working temperament, great conformation, good movement--fully extended the rear hocks, great pigmen).

Yes, most ASD breeders do breed for that all important sidegait. I too have seen shows, especially specialty shows, where the judging seemed to be based purely on the best sidegait of a tightly leashed dog who, off lead, was very incorrect. String 'em up and run 'em and you can hide a lot of faults. I thought Army of One was a very nice dog. Not as good as Ursus, IMO, but still better than most of the American dogs. 

The WL folks have their own blind spots, IMO.  Strong drives will trump correct body type for some. A square dog isn't what the standard calls for either.

Are you going to the Beaumont TX National?