FCI 2008 - Statistical Analysis - Page 4

Yvette,

 Numbers and statistics (unless it is LE productivity and/or crime stats) mean nothing to me and are usually way over my head. Once you and Bob-0 started nameing names and talking you lost me But the data you provided is pretty interesting.

Christopher and I are on the same mindset(which is rare) with this one.  When I first got into GSD's I thought I had entered the twilight zone. I can only compare it to someone from a non-religous background entering into a cult. I recenty made some (what I thought were) humerous satrical posts regarding religion.

I am wondering why GSD people get so offended when "outside" (and I wouldn't know what other word to use) dog people question the thought process and SV doctorine (again don't know what other word to use) I think it is because there are very strong similarities between organized religion and the SV organization and it's followers. You have a proclaimed omnipotent leader( the Cap't), an organizational structure, with a big interest in money. Sounds like a religion to me. GSD people are zelous in there beliefs, quick to defend and easily offended. Have you ever questioned a 7th Day Adventist? Oh boy watch out there.

I am a baptized Mormon. I was a "convert" at the age of 12 coming from parents who were far removed from any religious beliefs. However, my brother and sister were born into the church. So from my seeing and living another side of life, and beginning at an age where you naturally question things, I found the religion hard to believe and left at17. My brother and sister are full fleged (brother went on an mission sister to BYU)

So are they brainwashed because they don't know any other way? I kinda think it works that way. You get things preached to you, you have no other life experience so you accept it as fact.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is to anyone from a Malinios or Dutch Shepherd background, our interpretation of your breeds problems are simple and we can't understand why it is so hard for GSD people to admit or see it. The rules that you have about breeding just don't make logical, practical, or scientific sense. The fact that you have to compete in Sch and Sch only to get your breed survey does not make logical sense. I respect the sport and the trainers and the amount of time and commitment to succeed.  The tracking is a good test to have but the bitework as a real test of character, is almost laughable(in my opinion) at anything other than the best clubs and the highest levels.

I don't have anything against a GSD. A good dog is a good dog. I think any true working dog man hates to see a breed become unable to do what it was bred to do. Now the GSD is a long way from there yet (I am talking working lines not show lines cuz they are about done) but it is clear to anyone from the "outside"  the breed is not what it once was.

So to people like Christopher and I we can't understand why people don't think about the simple question he posed earlier........How is it that a breed with no individual breed test and breeders who often use untitled and un-xrayed parents, consistantly produce better and healthier working dogs that win all the major national and world events? 

I encourage people to question your doctorine, re-think your breeding practices, and quit looking at the money. 

Personally, I am not offended by anything either you or Chris have written.  I think you pose good questions, I think both of you are pretty knowledgable, and I don't think you guys are just trying to knock the breed.   I do think another part of the problem is popularity and those who think popularity is a good thing - of course they do, it means they sell more puppies.  The breed gets watered down in order to meet  the demands of every tom dick & harry who want the look but not the work.  Professional AKC handlers much prefer a very docile animal, less work, easier to show.

Can anyone give me good reasons why so many elements of the schutzhund trial have changed through the years? 

I want to say one more thing.  I have no problem when people who are knowledgable express constructive critisism.  I do have a problem with people who have an axe to grind, or who have never been involved with schutzhund or GSDs jump on the bandwagon and mimic what they have heard others say.  That is SOOOO iritating!!!

I hope Malis and Dutchies never become popular, I hope you never are lousy with unethical breeders or misguided "fanciers" who's goal is the look and to hell with the purpose. 

 I think someone already made the point, Sue--the Mal has not become "popular" with the non-working contingent.   Consequently, you do not have breeders breeding for  angle and length of shoulder or croup, pigment, or ear and tail set.  You do have Mal breeders who look at the parents FIRST, without any pedigree analysis, to ascertain what each apparently brings to the table.  I agree that breeding is a lot of the issue.  There are dogs bred with almost a discernable "point perspective" in the breeding.  Whether that produces the temperament and nerve that one also wants is  another issue. 

GARD found one Mal pedigree that was line-bred even MORE than a show line gsd, so  I have edited this post.  I haven't seen a pedigree like that since a club member showed me the ped of his game-bred pitbull and the same dog was on there 16 times (!!!) in 6 generations.

Yvette--I think you can get prior FCI results via a Google search.  I will try it and see what I get.  I know that I got nearly all the WUSV competitions for the past 12 or so years that way not very long ago.   I hate  statistics, by the way.  Dropped it TWICE in college.

"The fact remains that the FCI does contain the top malinois.  I asked to keep this civil, yet you wanna be an internet toughguy.  Please tell me what Malinois were not at the FCI? "

Here are 10 from my personal notes. All of these dogs have been in on the podium at a national event or in the 10 ten at international events in the last year and a half or so.

ALPHA DE SAUVAGE CHASSEUR

L'Simba du Loups du Soleil

Senna Smreska Zenski

Aladin von der Grafschaft Helfenstein

E.T. der Sonne entgegen

Attra vom Schwannenhof

Fritzi vom Parchimer Land

Athos vom Haus Kugel

Cenon de l'origine de faucon rouge

Ynka z Polytanu

I have answered all of the questions you have put to me. Will you answer a few that I asked above? 

Actually, heavy line breeding and in-breeding is very prevelant in the French and Belgian pedigrees. The trick is finding out what the correct pedigree actually is. Most of the pedigrees show very heavy linebreeding when in fact it is not nearly so tight. There are dogs in pedigrees that didn't even exist. But on the whole line-breeding is very prevelant in the Malinios

The Dutch/KNPV line dogs are the ones that have alot of outcrosses. I don't know enough about those lines but I read a very interesting interview with the owner of Perle de Tourbiere kennels in Holland who breeds line bred pedigree dogs (so he says...lol)

Part of the interview touched on some Dutch registry (don't what it is called) calling for a ban on line/in-breeding. According to him, even the non-pedigreed dogs all go back to many of the same dogs.

If that makes any sense

You can say that at any event, then.  This dog isn't there or that dog isn't there, but you have to admit those are most of the top malinois in the world.    Compared to GSDs, there are more top Malinois than top GSDs at the FCI, NO?  Slice it how you want.  I would take it a lot easier if you simply told me that the top Malinois don't even participate in Schutzhund.

What questions do you need answered?  The only question I remember reading, was whether Malinois handlers were better trainers.  To that, I say no.  There are more GSD trainers all over the world, so the amount of hacks increases.  BUT, as you and I were both at the Mali Nationals last year, I can honestly there are some hacks there too.  I would believe you would be the first to agree with that assessment, no?

I would be interested in Christopher's take on the pedigree GARD posted on another thread--"Let's discuss this pedigree."  It is a Mal pedigree that would scare the hell out of me in a gsd.

I see the points game as driving this.  I have yet to ever see a "serious" mal that could hold a candle to a serious GSD - however, I see many, many mals that are points monsters compared to the GSDs.  In other words, from a breed selection tool the GSD breed seems to produce greater numbers of obviously more powerful dogs.  Note, these dogs don;t typically do well at upper levels because of their temperament which leads points deductions – yet are typically the crowd and breeders favorites.  On the other hand the "pointy" GSDs I've seen, still aren't quite the level of "correctness" I see in the good mals and there seems to be a larger representation of high scoring pointy mals then GSDs.

So, to summarize, are there no "powerful" mals?  No, there are, it just seems that GSDs seem to produce more and more dramatic ones. 

Are there no "pointy" (almost if not 100% correct) GSDs, No there are, it just seems that there are more mals that can rack up the points, much easier.

Some might point out that in the other sports (KNPV, ring) that GSDs at one point could hold their own in and now don't.  All I can say is that I have yet to see a mal or dutchy that wasn't predominantly a prey dog that if evaluated using the same criteria as SchH dog being judged for breeding purposes (not for sporting competition) would do very well.  Grips, none existent, transitioning between drives – no almost always locked into prey, a broad spectrum temperament test (not knowing much about KNPV so making some assumptions) I don’t see it either.

FWIW, I don’t see the decoy in ring doing anything more than jacking up the dogs prey - I don’t see the pressure that should be applied to test character.  Personally I see ring as more as test of athleticism more than anything.  I know of SchH helpers who use many of the same rapid movements, wild stick wielding, etc and the dogs tend to react to it in prey not defense aggression.

I'm shooting off my mouth here for the sake of debate an respect opinions of all.  These just happen to be mine at this point in the game.

-Calvin

Chris

I went back and saw another question.  "when is the last time a GSD won the FCI?"

I don't know, but I will ask, When is the last time the Best GSDs in the world were at the FCI?  The FCI is not the premier GSD trial.  I don't want to take anything away from it, but it's not.   You act like the FCI doesn't contain some of the best Mals, but it does. 

I made the point to begin, that it is not fair to compare two breeds when in reality they are not equally represented.  I tried to be fair and stated that I truly don't have an opinion on which breed is better, but that I prefered a GSD.  Why you have a problem with that is beyond me.  Hell, if you are right and the Malinois is so much better than the GSD, why the chip on the shoulder.  Keep your secret with the other Malinois trainers and be happy.

Don first wrote:

"The fact remains that the FCI does contain the top malinois."

And now that your "fact" has been disproved you are moving on to something else. As Regis says, "Is that your final answer?" And most of the top Malinois are not in the FCI championship. But many are.

But maybe I haven’t explained myself to you in a way that you can understand. Here are a few highlights:

There is no sport that GSDs beat the Malinois when they come head to head. I will not get into other working venues because they have no points and are impossible to quantify. If you dispute this prove otherwise.

The GSD has a very elaborate breed system and requirements for breeding. The Malinois don’t have this. So why are the Malinois healthier and better at sport than the GSD?

I believe that the GSD breeders are doing a disservice when they refuse to look at the Malinois breeding system.

I don’t have a chip on my shoulder about the Malinois being better than the GSD. I have a chip on my shoulder about the GSD not being as good as the Malinois. There is a huge difference. And if you wonder why I’m "coming on too strong" ask yourself when was the last time you really gave these issues any real thought.