White Shepherd? - Page 4

KCzaja,

I wasn't refering to your post, more about generalizing and myth's I've heard over the year's. 

It's very true that breeder's concentrate on a single goal and neglect everything else.   And this separation of type's let's call them will only grow more separate in time.  In time I figure they will all adapt their own separate standard's as well.

I remember reading about Silver fox's, ranch fox, and how selecting the less aggressive or let's say tamer fox's who could be handled and made more domesticated began producing some of the color mutation's we see today.  You should see how far these mutation's have come in the variety of color's.   I don't know how that has anything to do with GSD's but the fact that selecting one trait had so much effect on the color's produced and the size too by the way, you can see the power of selection.

Cate,

That's what I alway's thought an albino was, a mutation, that could occur anywhere.    As alway's I could be wrong and don't really know genetic's.

Brent.

KCzaja  Will agree with you... MOST whites aren't bred for hardness... just like MOST American line Show dogs aren't. Actually until the past 15 years nobody was even looking @ pedigrees nor conformation and the major mentality was simply... "Hey, I got a big white dog, an you got a big white dog, let's get them together and make a buncha baby lil white dogs..."  And that's a really stupid limited view on any kind of breedings.   The folks who are breeding with thought for more than color are focused on basic mental stabliity (though not hardness) and conformation/movement. 

Shilo was much much more stable and hard than the dogs I had that followed.  Wizard was brilliant, outgoing, mentally stable in any kind of social situation... but I had trained him for PPD and he were struck he'd have stopped in his tracks with a shocked look on his face that anyone could have DONE that to him!!   Shilo just got pissed off and came back on the sleeve hard enough to leave marks thru the sleeve (or as we found out durring a demo with him, pop stitches on the assistant's arm) Most American line dogs don't have, and aren't bred for hardness .  That's a known fact.  And the Whites which are or were bred from that background generally lack hardness.  Obedience, Herding, Therapy, Agility, tracking... no problem. Probably even a number who could do low level bite work... but not many who are hard enough to do competition at a high level.  To change that the bloodlines which have those traits would have to be open to people who are not colorblind, and would allow white pups from their lines (and believe me they DO EXIST) to come into the white genetic pool.

    Same is true for any color choice. It's why a majority of European Show Line are Black and Red.... and the working lines are more Black Sable or black...  Nobdy seems to focus on a complete full and total German Shepherd as Von Stefenitz intended.  A dog with absolue correct conformation who could work all day and half the next.  In an Ideal world the Conformation Seiger should be able to be a top competition dog and be gentle enough to work lambs in herding. 

BTW... you guys are taxin' an ole gal's memory... Wizard's Police son's name was Kodi, and his handler was Brian Boyteau (Spelling). He was on a city police force... maybe Bristol, but not sure.  He worked about 5 years, then the K9 funding was ended, and Kodi went home to live with Brian. Would have been in the mid to late 80's. A number of dogs from Hoofprint Kennel (in Canada) were used by Leader Dogs for guide dogs, and also as police and SAR dogs. (working both the Mexico City Earth Quake and 911) I'll agree with you however... that these are exceptions not the rule, and that MOST lack the hardness for top level SchH work.

Windwalker -- I do agree with alot of what you said -- but I also wanted to say that the WGSDCII has been around as long as the disqualification of the white coat.  They were concious of pedigree and breeding...but I think tended to follow the AKC GSD model.  In 1994 AWSA was formed, which is where the separation movement occured based on their code of ethics.

As you said -- I think the softness in America isnt due so much to the breeders who breed for white as it is an American thing.  There are several breeders in Europe with titled dogs, dogs with SchH3, SVV2, RCI2, VPG3, IPO3, etc... titles....but also keep in mind...all the European whites trace back to Am-bred kennels, so with the correct selection there is most certainly that same potential for higher work within the lines here.  That's what I want to do...with some added European blood to boot.

Several breeders and owners have recently become interested in SchH as well...maybe in the last year or two -- and I think that we will start to see an increase in the number of working whites in the US as a result...that plus those breeders who are also set on brining in lines from Europe....which I think more people are becoming interested in.

~Cate

I'm glad to see some facts being posted about the Whites.  I was surprised when I read Captain Max's book to see a photo of a white GSD, and no evidence that I could find of him giving reasons why the Whites should NOT be considered a "real" GSD.  He stated his preference for sables and bi-colors and his opinion that white or dun colored dogs did not look appealing, but no reason why they should be excluded from the breed for lack of working ability.

Nevertheless, here we are, with so many generations of GSD's having excluded the Whites.  One could just could as easily imagine the tables turned, if the all BLACK dog had been labelled as "incorrect".  It is true that the all white coat in some breeds is associated with health problems, such as with white dobermanns.  However, if I am not mistaken, the White GSD has carrying such genetic baggage. 

I used to be a member of a SchH club (no longer in existence) that specifically wrote in their by-laws that White GSD's were NOT allowed in the club because they are "not German Shepherd Dogs".  Funny... what does that make them?  Poodles?  LOL

I look forward to hearing more facts about the genetic health of the White GSD.  I have heard that the Blues tend to have skin and hair problems, which is good enough reason NOT to breed them.  The Livers?  Haven't heard of the same problem.  Whereas I do not support breeding a dog just to get a certain color, we could easily point fingers at those who breed all Black GSD's as being "color blind".

As to the White's lack of working ability, that is a function I believe, of them being from excluded from the SV and snubbed by clubs unnecessarily.  This is an unfortunate bias, and I hope that we will see more White GSD's getting titled and proving their worth in the future.

Yvette

Ooops.  Typo... should read "The White GSD is not carrying such genetic baggage."

Great post Yvette!

~Cate

 just ran across this and thought of this thread 

 http://www.puppydogbreedinfo.com/german_shepherd_dog_breed_information.htm

DNA coding for white coats has been part of the German Shepherd Dog line from the very founding of the breed in 1899. The maternal grandfather of Horand von Grafrath, the first entry "SZ 1" in the SV Stud Book, was a white-coated German shepherding dog named Greif von Sparwasser. White was designated a disqualifying fault by the Nazi-controlled SV (German Shepherd Club of Germany) in the mid-1930's and by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) in the mid-1960's. Following the GSDCA's disqualification the American Kennel Club (AKC) then disqualified white-coated German Shepherd Dogs from the conformation show ring in 1969.

It is important to note that the Nazis took the SV (German Shepherd Club of Germany) breeding program away from Max von Stephanitz (1899 founder and president of the SV until 1935) and then outlawed the white coat color. In his 1921 book, Stephanitz stated, "The coloring of the dog has no significance whatsoever for service." The prime directive of Stephanitz breeding mandate was that the German Shepherd Dog breed must embody all the qualities of a working herding dog. He maintained that the beauty is in the working abilities of the dog; muscle, bone, joint, proud look and bearing, intelligence, stamina and work ethic were the primary strengths sought in the breed. ...

Dose anybody no if a white german shepherd has ever been titled in schutzhund or herding or french ring?

Herding ... many

Schutzhund some....

French Ring sport... dunno

Police.... yes

SAR... yes

TDI... Yes

Guide Dogs... yes

Go to the White Shepherd portion of this site and put in Hytyme Zion Rose Regalwise... who's got a slew of titles on her... A number of Regalwise dogs were titled in working areas. 

Everything windwalker said plus :

Schutzhund : a fair amount in Europe, only a few here

Ring : a few in Europe

Names to look for in sport :

X-Dream Amaroq of White Mountain Austria : http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/deckrueden/X_Dream_Amaroq.htm
Trust des Guardiens du Pacte : http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/deckrueden/Trust_Gardiens.htm
Bossanova von White Angel : http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/deckrueden/Bossanova.htm
Victories Bodyguard of Haely's Future : http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/white_shepherd/pedigree/488087.html
Verguston Taien : http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/white_shepherd/pedigree/526240.html

Those are the European studs I like best :)

~Cate