Handler Agression - Page 4

Ha Ha I John, I mean about the subject, not the training or breeding behind it. I have never had a dog of mine come up at me and I'm pretty heavy handed on my dogs. I'm totally laughing about whoever posted about the males not having issues with a female handler. Baden totally eye fu@&$ tha man of the house, even plays head games but he wont even think about it with mom. My luck, this female and I will go rounds. She's a LOT more explosive than Baden, quick and doesn't think as clearly when too much is going on around her. We could have some accidents but probably not true handler aggression.

I'm not one to "love" handler agg dogs, being I've never had the pleasure...lol. I don't see why I would ever choose a dog because they did show it, over one that wont. I'm not that bored, adventurous, into pain, or lawsuits. I think there are plenty of dogs out there that get the job done, without coming up the line. Intentionally breeding "for it", is something I would never do myself or suggest to others. That would be a placing nightmare. Breeding a dog that shows it, yes I would, if it's a nice dog in every other aspect. Could be so many factors as to why the dog is like that. More than likely your not going to get a litter of shredders anyway. Genetics are funny like that.

All I can say is at least the guy posting the add was upfront about it. Don't buy if your not into that, end of story. The litter in question is a super nice breeding. I can almost bet I could take a dog from this breeding and not have any problems with it. How many people breed to studs not even knowing if they are handler aggressive anyway? How many litter did Pike have? I don't see it as a horrible thing or bad for the breed. On the other end of the spectrum, we have people breeding Goldens in GSD clothing. If I had to choose, I'd take the handler hard, over the soft dog that will fold at harsh corrections.

sorry 4pack,  i saw the words and reverted back to training.  thats what happens when you spend too much time training dogs, and typing.  too damn hot here to train untill later in the evening. 

i like your point about people breeding to males and not really knowing the dog.  not to say i havent done it, but i sure as hell trusted the stud owner enough to take his word on the matter.

goldens in gsd clothing?  im still having a hard time trying to figure out what you mean? LOL

john

I have made my point on this several times.

So I will revert to my old saying........

"Just because you do not like it or understand it; doesn't make it bad."

 oops, wrong thread.......

What about a dog that goes up the leash on a handler for an unfair correction ?  If the dog only shows that agression in a moment of confusion when the handler is correcting unfairly - is he a hard dog or classified as handler aggressive?

Cheryl

There are varying forms of handler aggression and not all are bad. Some are for sure, but not all as a flat rule of thumb.

Some of the best producing dogs of all time were/are potentially handler aggressive because they were strong, powerful, driven dogs and they had a line that when it was crossed and they were treated unfairly they stood up for themselves. That is not a bad thing. That breeds strong dogs. In some it stems from excellent fight drive and hardness. The ones I don't like it in are the ones that stem from nerves and inability to handle pressure. There is a difference and not everyone can see it, especially if your experience with dogs of this nature are limited. Now, I am not saying that at anyone or to talk down to anyone so please don't get that lost in translation from email. I'm just saying that experience level with those types of dogs certainly helps. Handler aggression can encompass a fairly wide spectrum of dogs and genetics and really needs looked at in an individual dog-individual incident type thinking.

Not all dogs are for everyone. Many people have no true need or want for a hard and dominant alpha male. But some do. There is a definite place in the world for dogs of that genetic makeup. Unfortunately, I do think a great many people identify hardness and aggression wrongly. Many dogs I have seen and worked touted as this, simply have bad nerves and are unstable, but getting them to see that is a real task sometimes.

                                                   Nate

Genetics may lend to "handler aggression", but doesn't create it.  Handlers do.

Thank goodness this thread got a boost of posters who know what they're talking about. Jletcher, Grimmdog, 4pack- great posts.

My opinion is that genetics do play a roll. If you have the same handler work 10 different dogs, all 10 are not going to come up the line at him. Part of the equation is in the dog. Something in some dogs says "it's OK to come up that line at my alpha" when other dogs won't, no matter how hard you are on them. Just like people some of us accept our fate, others buck the system. I come up the line frequently! LOL

I saw a guy not too long ago get bit pretty good by his dog. Freakin' Dutchie. 4-5th handler for the dog. I didn't see any harsh correction by the handler, dog came off the bite and just nailed him too. Wasn't an "oops sorry dad, I tagged you" and let go, he stayed on him and it was a tug of war. I was a bit disturbed by the event, not seeing a justification for the dog to act out like that. I didn't understand it and still don't. I do know the handler knew of the dogs past and was warry/scared but didn't wanna admit it. Dog is now with someone else and had a couple almosts and choked nighty night, so far so good. After seeing what I saw, I wouldn't handle the dog. I can honestly say if I dog I raise from a pup comes up at me seriously, he'll be gone if it happens a second time, after he's been "delt with" the first time. Some dogs are just wired wrong.

And if handled differently, could have been a very different dog.  If you have the same handler work 10 different CLONED dogs, all 10 would not be the same.  Genetics plays a part, just not enough to take all the blame.  A very hard dog "could" contribute to learned handler aggression, because if it takes no notice of, or makes no effort to avoid a correction, then it is less able to learn what is and what is not acceptable behavior.  Willingness, or biddable temperament in a hard dog is possible, and for me, preferred.