a question - Page 4

 For me the word discipline is negatively occupied and has not anything with dogs to do. A question, how one experienced discipline, or? 

Different opinions are absolutely legitimate.

I miss here however alternative opinions and methods - it is almost exclusively using "tools" fallen back - why not using our own senses?

If I see GSD-videos on youtube, I ask myself: are all these dogs deaf and blind ??? Or is there - may be - a disproportion between the owners and the dogs?

I have not a problem with that - that I stand with my opinion in this thread alone… it was also only one attempt to hear and look - after some time again - , whether it perhaps already gave changes. It is sad that are there no changes - sad for the dogs.

We have to understand the dog. Not in reverse.

@get a real dog:I am fairly certain you have never worked a knpv or belgian ring malinios.......

Oh yes, I observe and can show pic´s ( police training ) with absolutely work ONLY with motivation - beginning in earliest youth - with original belgian malinois. Do anybody want to see pic´s of that? Beside - where I train my dogs too...

Training children,  Dogs or Husband - one has to teach what is good and what is not accepted. While we would like everything to be good and reward with high praise, hot dogs and new tools that is not always the case.  One has to be real and know that we have to show what is not accepted and show the consequences for bad behavior ie no computer, use of pinch collar or sleeping on the sofa.

It is the way we all learn.

EK

"Training children,  Dogs or Husband"

ROFLMAO!  My husband needs a ton of discipline and spends alot of time in time-out.

 I did not learn in my whole life or to learn to be able, if I had pain thereby. By the way my son also not. One does not learn over pain - one learns over motivation - our dogs is not stupid. The only reason of actual we do not take themselves the time, which is necessary/would be.

Senta - You have obviously spent no time watching wolves interact with each other.

They discipline through body language, aggression, dominance etc they do not hesitate to barge, nip or worse.  Having a group of GSD's who live together they are very similar to wolves and when the puppy over stepped the mark one of the older bitches nipped hard enough to hurt her.

Dogs have and never will be humans and you should not mix the two.  Even good child pyscology states that people try and get kids to toe the line by over talking the issue and that more black and white training such as time out, no talk, no emotion and removal of pocket money gets there quicker.

I do not advocate abuse to a dog, but I do follow the type of training that they dish out amonst their selves and a quick tap in the ribs stops more behaviour than the human voice ever does - they turn round as if to say "did you want me".

 It is something complicated for me to understand - because of the translation/the language.

The fact is: Dogs are dogs and NO wolves. Perhaps humans would have gladly a wolf as in the fairy tale. The dog comes of the wolf off however it is a dog and a nothing else.

A dog, which lives with humans and would like to communicate - the only animal who want it with us.... and needs it. It does not need to separate a punishment - understanding its language, and it will do everything which humans of it would like. Because a dog is more social than some humans. With pressure one does not reach what one wishes.

If a dog is elsewhere better with more allowance, it will leaves you soon.

A child does not need the withdrawal of pocket money - it needs having an explanation, more than we have time sometimes. If we do not have the time, we should have neither dogs nor children.

 A good socialized dog/female/mother-dog does not injure its puppies as well as it also wolves does not and also dogs in free herds not does not do.

I mean body language, thats right...  and not e-collars and something like that.

I am going to stop posting on here.  As I understand your right to an opinion but you seem unwilling to see more.

Dogs are not wolves however that is what they have descended from.  I can abuse my dogs verbally in a very nice tone of voice and they do not understand what Im saying, and in turn I say really nice things but with a bad tone and the same occurs.

Are you aware of "anthropromorphism"  I suggest you look it up and consider it. 

As for dealing with children, they dont think like adults and therefore should not be treated like little adults.  Im currently undertaking a course with educational psycologists so that I can interact better with my children and deal better with one who has development problems and they have results from various studies etc.  Strangely enough those that use simple no emotion response, with no debate/reasoning and the black and white approach which includes 2 warnings and your are out etc and removing pocket money has produced much better results with all ages up to 12 than any of the other approaches.  My kids have even told me that they prefer this as they understand more clearly when they are in the wrong and that their behaviour is inappropriate as they find they listen as they have admitted to "tuning" out when I try and reason etc.

Strange how many dog behavourists advocate the no talk approach when dealing with dogs .....

I disagree with you  One does learn from pain. We learn at very early ages that the stove is "hot" (pain) we learn that some boys will break our heart (pain) Not everyone is going to like us (painful trueth) If you got caught smoking by a parent - well we learn the belt hurts,

As dogs go:  When the pup is young a mother teaches him that taking her food will result in a mouthfull of teeth over his nose (which I can not see being non hurtful as he learns very quickly to leave her food alone). Playing with other puppies they learn by snaps and bite when playing to hard. Other dogs use pain as a alpha role when pinning another to the ground. 

and as husband goes  well that would take all day  to explain.

But the point is YES, we do learn from pain and we learn that everything we do has a conesquence to it let it be good or bad but that is how we learn.

Guess you never had a bitch who eat her pups? Also, in a pack of stray dogs a mother dog will leave the pack to give birth to protect the pups. I agree with you that dogs are not wolves. Yet the only difference between those two is that the dog has accepted the human in its pack without challenging the pack structure of it every single day like a wolve would do. A wolve would kill you if you show any weakness, with a dog you might talk your mouth fuzzy but you will survive your mistake.

 …. …. …. are all behavior researches wrong over wolves and dogs??? ..... ....

That was not my beginning. My beginning was to see alternatives which there are sufficiently…. and with success one works.

Alternative one, which are not based on experience with pain. Obviously there are here no alternatives. Good to know for me - sad for the dogs, our best friends.

***Besides said: I would not like to convince anybody. The title post office is called: a question…. not more. The question was if here are - in this board -  still different humans, whom similarly as I train and a lot of other people…