Use of E-Collars - Positive Training??? - Page 4

I think its better to use a bump of the pager as opposed to the stimulus since the stimulis has a cummulitive effect the pager like the stimulus is a physical cue the dog can feel  sans side effect once the dogs is conditioned you can easily add the stmulus in the same place.and there is no''shock'' to the dog since you have produced expectation of a physical cue happening at that moment by linking the pager with the food it becomes''the food ''hence its ''positive'' dogs need physicality  to learn  proper timing quickly  ,I think sometimes it gets hard for people to think outside the box because they are so preoccupied with how people use it wrong they only think in those terms

you can see in this video everytime the dog feels the pager or nick it anticipates something good the food!  I'm not sure how else you could get those results in such a short time with attached tools http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tINXSqHjbpY       that dog was a bonehead but the collar increased the food drive and happy attitude if anything the owners were at their wits end with her

 Panzertoo, I'm not certain you actually understood what we were talking about. Negative reinforcement does not have to be a bad thing. It is the removal of an aversive stimulus that makes a behavior happen again. Does not necessarily have to be a correction. We answer our cell phones to turn the ringing off. That is not a correction we're turning off, but that does not mean it is not negative reinforcement - the actual term used to describe that quandrant of operant conditioning theory. Many people put their seat belt on when the little bell in the car starts ringing that your seat belt is not on. This turns off the buzzing in the car, yet again, this is an example of negative reinforcement at play. Note that I never said the buzzing was a correction, or considered painful or anything else...simply that it is technically negative reinforcement. Nobody that is understanding the correct terms is saying that it's a bad thing, but you can't take negative reinforcement, and call it positive reinforcement on a list with a bunch of trainers without being called on it to call a spade a spade.

These are not terms that we just made up, they are already pre defined terms. It would be like me calling a cat a dog because it has 4 legs, if you said "no, it's technically a dog" and I answered "well, I'm more progressive then you, the cat has 4 legs and therefore it's a dog. 

Again, note that I did not say the removal of a CORRECTION to get a behavior to happen again, I said the removal of a stimulus. Whether it's the fact that the cell phone stops ringing, the car sound stops beeping, or the pager stops buzzing on the dog, it is still negative reinforcement as the pre defined term being used here. 

I have had several people tell me that they use the remote collar the same as a clicker, but I've never had anybody be able to show it. If I were using a clicker I would be free shaping a behavior more then likely. Pair the click with a food reward, then wait for the dog to do the correct behavior and click and treat. Click is always paired with a reward, and marks the exact moment that I'm trying to reward. (no clicker trainers I've ever worked with have ever paired a click with a negative) It seems to me that this would really limit how you could use a remote collar, but if it works for you be my guest. I have no problem with using it the way it's shown here...negative reinforcement. buzzing starts, dog performs behavior, buzzing stops.

If you're using the buzz BEFORE the behavior, there's no way its positive reinforcement either....since both negative and positive reinforcement would happen AFTER the behavior as a way to try to get the dog to do something again (the removal of the stimulus or buzzing stops after the dog starts to perform the correct behavior...if this was positive reinforcement, the dog would perform the behavior and THEN the buzz would happen). You could be using it as a cue, but that again to me limits its use in my mind. Because the buzz could only mean one thing to the dog, and if that's the case, are you not giving the dog any sort of command whatsoever? So you're just expecting a fully trained dog to figure out what you mean whenever you push the button, even after they understand multiple cues? 

If someone has video footage of using the remote collar exactly as a clicker trainer would use a clicker, I'd love to see it. Most of the time when people have tried to tell me they've done it that way they don't seem to understand how a clicker is really used, but I would like to see it. I've never seen a dog consider either the buzzer or the stim to be a positive even when I tried to use the buzzer as actual cues. They may be in drive, and they may not be stressed by it, but that does not mean it's positive reinforcement - the actual pre defined term from operant conditioning. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning for clarifica

WOW Shasta!  Excellent, excellent explanation without any ego/emotion (I know it is technically a little late but 'click' ... jackpot for you). I sure hope you teach somewhere. 

 Thanks ocoey, I wasn't wanting to come across as anything but explanation truly, and hoping to get the clarification out there. Plus if someone can show me a new way to use the tool I'd love to see it. Yup, pro trainer coming on 20+ years and teaching out in california, doing schutzhund with my own dogs, loving every minute of it all even now :-) Thanks!

Shasta I;m not a mnoron and most professional trainersdo not sit around quoting BF Skinner they do what works and I doubt you will fiind someone who thinks answering a cell phone is negative reinforcement the buzz'' and keep in mind there is no sound thats just a sound box is concurrent with the command the reason you start it slightly before is there is an inevitable delay  not in the electronics but in the humans the idea is to enhance the command to make it physical since dogs are not hard wired for verbal skills certaininly not to have a reactionary ''muscle memory'' to them  and no one is going to show you a video of someone using it like a clicker because you cannot get reliable off leash control around distrations using a clicker much less reliable recall or fix behavior problems clicker training on anything but puppies or movie dogs is not realistic  behaviior shaping and training a dog to be reliable are two very different things you seem to have made to your mission to prove I'm wrong and do not know what I'm doing if you want to see  a video of the ''clicker collar''you should easily be able to make one of your own  dog training involves thinking outside the box I'm not sure what method you use at your schoool but I am certainly open to seeing some of your before after videos and since you seem to know a lot of people who are using the collar the way I am please post their videos too I would love to exchange ideas with them!

sorry panzertoo but let's not go there. Never once did I call you a moron nor did I ever once attack you as a person nor as a trainer. Never even attacked your training style, or even the training collar (refer to previous posts). In fact, I said that I can appreciate your style, the dogs appear to be happy and trained etc. If you read my posts AGAIN, I simply described negative reinforcement AGAIN and AGAIN and explained how this fits into that quadrant. Even provided an outside link. You don't seem to even want to understand it, so don't read it. But we're not going to turn this into a trainer ego fest ("I train better then you train" "my style is better then your style" and back and forth till the cows come home, insert videos etc). 

Sorry, anybody that actually knows the pre defined terms of positive or negative reinforcement and positive and negative punishment would put the cell phone into the negative reinforcement. If you can tell me another quadrant it fits under and why, I'd be more then happy to hear it. Heck, if you can tell me how what you're doing fits into another quadrant - and be able to explain why it fits there, Id again be happy to hear it. Just no hijacking a pre defined term and changing the meaning of the term which was my beef with the posts on this thread to begin with. A term was hijacked. Just because you want to call it positive reinforcement, does not mean it is positive reinforcement. (just because someone wants to call a cat a dog does not make it a dog, and it would be awfully confusing to call a cat a dog on a message board when we can't see it and then not understand why we think it's a dog).

Trainers don't usually have the time to sit around on these boards (I by the way am laid up for 6 weeks after a serious knee injury and surgery and can't work a dog for the time being....my excuse for sitting on this thing when I have nothing I can do is valid, and really, I don't have to explain that to anyone nor validate myself on a message board) let alone talk about operant conditioning...but an educated trainer SHOULD know the theory and the terms and be able to discuss them  amongst colleagues. If you are a trainer, that makes you my colleague. Who in their right mind is going to go take that to clients. I wasn't talking about that. I simply told you there needed to be a clarification on the term here so we're all on the same page. People were saying it is being used as positive reinforcement. Since that is predefined and I know what that means BECAUSE it is predefined, I would take that to mean it is happening after the behavior as a reward for the behavior in an effort to make the behavior happen again? But as I said, that doesn't appear to be what you're doing and I can't figure it out because you are describing it using already predefined terms, but not really because you're using your own definition for that predefined term. THAT is why it's important to get the terminology right. You're describing one thing, then showing another on the video, and using predefined terms to mean things that they don't mean. How can that keep a conversation clear? 

I never asked for clarification on your style. I looked at the videos, saw what you're doing, understand the style and the e collar and could figure it out. I never knocked it, never once said it doesn't work, nor have I made it my mission to prove you wrong. You took it that way, but I simply clarified a term, multiple times. If I'm wrong that  of the quadrants in operant conditioning you're not using negative reinforcement, please tell me which quadrant you ARE using and why. If you're using the collar as a cue, (as a predefined term) please tell me you're using it as a cue, and then explain how the heck you can do that. I don't understand it and haven't been able to figure it out. Because if you're using it as a cue, how can it be attached to several different behaviors at the

Because if you're using it as a cue, how can it be attached to several different behaviors at the same time????

I did not ask for the clicker collar video for clarification on clicker training for you, I asked because someone else above posted that it could be used as positive reinforcement much like a clicker. I've had people tell me they use it that way before but nobody has showed it to me and I don't understand how somebody COULD use it that way so I asked for demonstration.

As far as what style I use, what difference does that make to this conversation since it's not a question of styles but of terms? By the way, you won't be able to FIGURE out what "style" I use because the tool I use and the technique is fitted towards the individual dog and handler, so there is no "my style". I'm familiar with everything from Koehler to Pryor,Ivan B to I don't know, whoever is opposite in "style". I can as comfortably put on a gentle leader and use a clicker as I can put on an ecollar or pinch collar if it fits the dog and the handler best. Have trained everything from studio dogs, to service dogs, to pet dogs and sport dogs etc. I'm of the mindset that it's important to know of and understand the techniques a variety of trainers are using with a variety of tools so I can best help the dogs since THEY are what it's all about. So you'll never see me get into a spitting match over tools or so called "styles". Nor can I tolerate it when people locked into a style fight with a style that doesn't suit them since it doesn't help the dogs. when the positive reinforcement only zealots attack the remote trainers zealots and vice versa it does nothing for the dogs. Better just to know how to use all the tools and match it to the individual and leave the spitting contests to everyone else. But I can't DO that if you're describing a style and using your own terms. 

 BTW, you mentioned wanting to talk with other trainers who are using the collar similar to how you're using it. Join the IACP (International association of k9 professionals) if you haven't already and get on their list or read their trade journal, there's several on there using the collar a variety of ways with a variety of dogs and clients. There's also trainers in there using clickers etc and a variety of styles, but you can talk with just about anybody using almost any style there. 

I used the E-Collar to teach avoidance, or negative association to something or a color with all my dogs. IE: Chaseing squirrels, deer, bear, turkeys, all wildlife and hunters in orange. It worked. About a week useing the collar and all is good.