Head Shaking in prey drive on the sleeve - Page 4

Do you have a link to those Video's?

Teri

Quote: "it is called fight drive.if you want to see a good example watch Fero Zu,or his Son Troll nachbershaft,or his brother timmy.this is immpresive and has nothing to do with bad nervs or anthing like that high fight drive dogs tend to show that kind of power in the fight.have a nice one."

Very correct, it is genetic (also what another poster stated). My 8 months old pup has both of these dogs in his pedigree and he does it, too, "naturally", so it's unmistakeably genetic. The other tendency of these lines, once slipped the sleeve, they walk the circle a little bit, but actualy REALLY like to lay down (with sleeve in the mouth) after a few circles and "enjoy the spoils of a good fight. Also genetic (I strongly believe, but not 100% sure), with very confident dog with plenty of fight.

My pup does it - been doing it ever since I got him at 8 weeks, his father does it (with gusto!), grandfather does it, great grandfather (Troll) did it, have no information about Fero, great great grandfather, but it wouldn't be surprised if he did it too.

I"m amazed how people can interpret training from a few lines on a message board.  Your girl sounds like she needs training for sure.  I don't know what your helper is doing, but don't rush off to find a new one because someone on a message board told you to. 

sometimes things need to be toned down a bit, or taught as a game for a while so the dog is in a frame of mind that they can think and actually learn some things.  If they have a lot of fight, it will be there when you need it, but they have to be in a frame of mind that they can learn in the beginning. 

Maybe what you helper said was your dog was over the top, meaning it was jumping snarling, biting at air, grasping at anything because it didn't know anything yet.  I've seen dogs like that, look like a crazed killer on the end of the leash to the untrained eye.  Looks like tons of drive, tons of fight, tons of eveything and in reality it was nothing of the sort.

I've also seen these dogs when they get trained to target, trained to focus and how to put all that energy into the bite and the actual fight, rather than all the threat displays that seem to wow some people, turn into really nice dogs.  Some trainers will just foster all the threat displays and tell everyone how "real" the dog is, when in reality, it doesn't know how to bite, how to put power into a bite, how to fight, or even when, it just knows to act crazy. 

not only do i like it, i encourage it with my pups.  when they grap the rag and shake their head i praise and tell them,,good boy, kill it.     i have never had this become a problem during bite work with over a dozen dogs that i have raised or help train at club.  

i would have to agree that most people have heard in training to calm the dog,  hold the sleeve calm.  the problem is most people take this (as they take most things they hear) to the exteme level.   yes i want my dog to have a full grip, but if he wants to try and take the helpers arm off in the process, all the better.   gotta love a dog with good fight drive.

john

I don't think she is just biting at anything (air, etc.), she is trying to get to the helper & the sleeve pulling and jumping on the long line.  I would agree with you that she is not in the right mind set because she has to learn to focus on the bit , where to bite, to give a full bit and after reading some of your thoughts, I think that is what he's trying to get from her and her fight & drive is making it harder.  I know he tried to get her off the sleeve and couldn't the one day we trained but he said that was good.  We didn't command her to release, he wanted to see how strong she was.  He likes her alot and said he wants to make sure she is solid on the bite.  I like this helper, he brings out the best in most of the dogs I've seen him work.  I'll ask him in detail to explain his thoughts to me about her bit work.  

My worry of course is since I am new to schutzhund I want to make sure I don't work her with someone who will injure her, encourage bad habits or ruin her.  Her breeder is helping me and recommended this helper because she trusts him.  But I do think you and your dog can learn from training with other people as long as they are good because some methods will click better with certain dogs.

Thank you Teri       

and jumping from trainer to trainer in order to find the "best" often times ends up with a confused dog with no clarity that once had lots of promise and ends up looking like shit.

if you don't think you have a capable helper, which we have no way of knowing if you do or not.  But if your breeder recommends him and you've watched his training, young dogs and older dogs and dogs he's brought along and he's done well, you might do well just to stay put and learn some things.

There is nothing wrong with trying to have the best trainer, but in your quest, leave your dog at home and go watch.  Look at the dogs they've trained, look at the dogs their training and talk to the people they train with.  It is important, especially with a young dog, or a dog learning the basics.  that is the foundation and it needs to be consistent. 

At some point you need to find a helper you trust to do the best for you and your dog.  Trained dogs can work on any helper, it doesnt' matter, but until you find that trainer you trust, do your dog a favor and leave him at home or in the car. 

Good advice, I will keep my eyes open, ask more questions for a better understanding and stay with this trainer for now.  

Thank you Teri   

4PACK - I would agree that as a pup Asko probably wasn't brought into civil. No intelligent person jumps right in a 4 or 5 month old pups rear like he was a grown dog. A good helper will steadily increase the amount of civil as the young dog shows it's ready for it.

Some dogs just naturally have that agressive side to them from the start. The ones that ahow they'll bite your arm, sleeve or not. It's the weak helper that says that the dog is too over the top and can't be trained. The good helper will know what he's looking at and know how to train the dog.

TERRI- I agree with ZDOG.  Go and look at other clubs and trainers, without your pup. Watch him training the clubs dogs. WATCH ALL THE DOGS. You want to train with the club where the VAST MAJORITY of the dogs look good in the bite work. Every club has that 1 or 2 dogs that look great. Even the clubs with poor helpers. The reason is that those same 1 or 2 dogs would look good anywhere. They have that natural ability. When you find a club where all the dogs look good it's due to a good helper knowing what he has to do to bring the best out of each dog.

Thank you , I will look for more clubs in my area to visit and compare.  Thank everyone for all the input with my girl.

Teri

Eisen Faust,

Great posts.