...price of a working dog, got me thinking - Page 4

daryle,

you mentioned that you were still new new to the sport, so ill assume he following.  you've only seen a few local trials and not had a chance to really study and train w/ some of the folks compete at the highes level.  is this a correct assumption?

i say this not to break your balls but to poit out that 99% of the time when you see a 97pt ob routine at a club trial, that same routine might only score a 88 at a national events. its not a matter of having higher club standards, most of our members have and do show at national levels, and they really dont care about club trials.  its proven fact, beyond a mathmatical certianty.  club trials and scored easier than national trials.  and national events bring more stress than club trials. 

but my point was since ive tried to run w/ the big dogs i have a different perspective than i had before.  most folkd dont understand how hard it is to go from 92pt ob to 96 pt ob.  its only 4 pts but when you get to that level your talking about 1/2 point here or there.  its extremly hard.  My last dog, i love him to death. he's an extremly stong dog w/ lots of drive.  i dont think there is anyone who hasnt said wow....thats a really nice dog.  when i got him i swore this was it, this is the dog.

ive had a chance to train w/ several folks who have made world teams. each and every one said that is one of the strongest dogs iv ever seen.  but if you want to win, sell him and find another.  so i have a dog that is awesome w. drive, perfect grip, loves to track etc.. and these folks who have been where i wanna go say find another dog.  it took a few years but i finally saw what they were saying. 

they all have been to the mountian top and told me that this dog cant get you there, how did they know.  they all said that they had the big strong bad ass dog when they were younger and they couldnt get the consistant V score. 

But being new to the higher levels i thought i could do better than they did.

Boy was i wrong

Wscott

In your original post, you asked how hard it was to get good pups into the good hands. 

See that is related.  What I mean is that if you have good pups, it isn't hard.  If you have mediocre/average pups then it will not happen.  At first, when a breeder is starting out, it is hard to get a good trainer to take a chance with something that is unknown.  After you have proven yourself and what you have produced, it is easier to get the right pups in the right hands. 

We see this all the time.  Many many people on here talk about certain kennels as if there are only ten kennels in every country.  It is because we trust what we know.  Would you go to Rusty's Body Shop or Maaco for your automobile repairs?  I would think that Karthago, Jabina, Leefdalhof, Dollenweise, Mohnweise, etc.  find it easier to place excellent puppies than Joe Blow.

Wscott

I, and I'm sure most, will agree that club trials are not judge in the same manner as a national event.   

Why would it be? 

One thing to help the problem, if you see it as that, would be to choose the judge according to your taste.  If you want the trial to be honest, pick a judge that judges honestly.  Two judges that come to mind are Bill Szentmiklosi and Raino Flugge.  They will give you an honest represention.  Much more honest than the Judge that is on holiday with his wife, seeing different parts of the country.  If you have been in the sport and are as versed as you sound, you and your national/world club members know which judges are creampuffs and which are more realistic at club trials.  You can do a bit to help this issue.  

Club and national or world level trials are different in many ways.  Not only is the judge more leinient, but you are probably on your own field, tracking at familiar fields, the blinds are where they always are, and being evaluated on your own helper.  I would think that all of these combined, will give a much better score to the average dog. 

Those who Buy a Dog who has been partly trained or if it has been trained to gain a title in my opinion have a false sense of ever acheiving anything themselves

They want the work done for them so that can get the accolades from those you do not know they did nothing towards the Dogs abitities

Unless you are doing it for financial gain, then why not buy a 8 to 9 week old pup train it yourself and enjoy it then if you title the Dog later on you can have the pride in the work you and the Pup put in

There is an easy way out or there is a right way to do something for yourself, 

Most are inclined to take the easy way by the posts on here

I can tell you over here they do not take the easy way out

They buy a Pup and Train it themselves, I have not seen a Young Dog bought into two clubs i belong too this last two years, only Pups 8 to 9 weeks old

Two people are expecting to get there new Pups this coming June, This is what makes a great Club, A lot of Young Pups coming on,

Steve

Steve:  Not everybody wants to start with an 8 week old puppy, and there is nothing wrong with that.  It has nothing to do with taking the easy way out.  It has to do with wanting to get a dog who already has health clearances and wanting to have a  better idea of the dogs drives.  Not everybody has the time or inclination to raise a puppy. 

Steve

I think that the majority of people do start with pups. 

One advantage in Europe, is that you have a larger amount of quality dogs to choose from in a small area as opposed to the US.  Our states are the size of countries in Europe.  There are more Quality dogs available in Germany than in the US.  Germany is the size of Wisconsin.  Can you imagine if we had that many good breeders in such a small area?  Here in the US it is more difficult to go ride to the breeders and look at both parents.  Many people here are buying blindly and it is more of a risk.   The good breeders are spread out too far to be as effective as a smaller country in Europe.  Thankfully the internet is good for one thing.  It is now easier to send and look at video and footage of dogs and pups, but it is still not as good as in person.  Videos can showcase the highlights and leave out what can be seen in person.

Buying a slightly older dog helps because it is more telling of what the dog will eventually be. 

You also have more clubs in a smaller area.  That makes it easier on the trainers too.  Many people in the US drive hours to get to a decent club.

don, you are exactly correct.  if it were up to me we would have those judges. there are those in my club that would rather have a easier friendly judge.  and that  is the case for most clubs. regional and national level trials are different world.  folk dont realize how much it will effect a dog when you travel 8 hrs, the dog is basically living in a crate all weekend, you maybe get 5 min on the field to practice. 

if i had the room i wouldnt mind having a puppy or two around while im training a dog.  but i have not desire to have a puppy as my only dog and put all my eggs and time into that basket.  i can understand why folks feel those who buy young dogs are cutting corners, i felt the exact same way at one point. 

but after going thru 2 puppies and time, it makes no since for me.  my ideal young dog would be 12-18 months biting a sleeve and barely heeling.  meaning he know to look up and walk.  other than that i wouldnt want any other training.

wscott00, you're correct, I have just a couple years in the sport, and I've not yet attended a national event.  I have seen the stress it places on the handler, and perhaps that is a large factor.  But as Don suggests, I've often wondered if there's truth that they were softer (esp. on showlines).

Kathargo (no longer breeding gsd's for some reason) and the other kennels mentioned are European, and I think the reason that Europe is a greater source for top producing prospects, is for the fact that many handlers in the US with "top sport" dogs also have their dogs from these kennels.  The main focus being the producing stud dog I'd imagine, as these European kennels are more often useing the top performers for their stud service than US breeders are, it seems.  Every one has an interest in the latest high-placers, because they have proven themselves, and have a greater possibility of putting themselves into their progeny.  Once a top handler takes a chance on some vastly different bloodline and does well with it, that becomes the next craze for prospective buyers.

There are many young pups at my club that were obtained locally, some very exceptional.  I would like to see that trend grow.

Bob i like yor comments and also some one else pointed this out and basically took the words right out of my mouth that as a good trainer you will serve best if you actually did train and raised a puppy and then taken it to big cometition.if you have chosen to be in dog training and competing.Also,as i have mentioned before,breeders please stop fantasizing about improving the breed and placing your puppies in working hands because the fact is there are not enough people doing shutzhund and there are even fewer who are doing it well.and those supposedly working hands you place your pupies in are doing nothing but ruineing those good dogs,for they have not taken the time to to do it right.people who are scared of puppies and always saying that puppies are gamble,just remember puppies are born with their genitics from day one and all kind of drives pepole always talking about they are result of genetics eaither they have them or they don't.for example if puppy showes intense prey drive at the age of eight weeks he will always show this drive because this not a learned behavior the only thing that would mess that up would be you same with the biting behavior if the puppy bites very strong crushing bite it will always bite untill you come in the picture and mess it up for him.it is genetics they do not wake one day and decide they do not want to bite anymore.very basic,we are not building rockets here.have a nice one. thanx.

Daryl:  Here is a link to Karthago.  Why would you think they are no longer breeding GSDs?  They have litter on the ground whelped this month:

http://www.von-karthago.de/english/for%20sale/for%20sale.html