Do you think... - Page 4

Two Moons-  Just to add to something you mentioned in your above post I wanted to touch on....

"Finally, I'm in the USA and I have the right to bear arms.  I wouldnt ask my dog to do something I can do for myself."

I too am a gun law supporter, we own fire arms, have permits to carry ( I choose not to) which brings me to respond to your comment.  You wouldn't ask your dog to something you can do for yourself??  Really???  Are you that CERTAIN, CONFIDENT that you absolutely could take care of a serious situation yourself??  You could without question pull a trigger to kill someone??  That's a pretty serious decission to have to make and unless you can honestly say you could without a doubt finish the job without second guessing or freezing up then I'd keep those fire arms locked up and put more faith in the dog. I can tell you when a police officer asked me the same question I asked you I hesitated because I really don't know how I'd truly react, he told me keep my gun locked up because I'm the type of person who'd get killed with my own weapon by an attacker/intruder. 

Here's another thought to ponder just hypothetically speaking....you shoot an intruder you got a BIG problem.  If he's dead, well hope you shot him in the right place and he's really in your house and not in the doorway on his way out with a bullet in his back cause now you need a defense attorney and will probably loose your house after the crack heads family sues you in civil court.  If he's not dead well then it's likely he will sue you personally, weather he wins or not is irrelevant because you are still gonna dish out tens of thousands of dollars in attorney's fees to defend yourself regardless if you were in the right.

Same situation-your dog chews up an intruder/attacker in your home.  What's the worst that is gonna happen???  An investigation for sure, humane agent may and probably will come, you may get sued but I'd rather let the insurance company pay a claim and possibly drop me than lose everything I worked for all my life had the situation been handled differently.  JMO

Some folks I know have "trained" or "tested" their GSDs to resist entry by anyone but family when they are gone. One of my friends, a long time GSD enthusiast of over 40 years had his personal dog in his back yard and allowed me to try and trick him into letting me in the yard to enter the home.  This GSD knew me well but wouldn't budge.  Many times when I visited I would try. He would wag his tail, let me pet him over the fence, and seemed friendly.  But as soon as I would put my hand on the gate latch of the cyclone fence, he would start smiling at me.  I tried using candy, and treats like beef jerky on him, and no dice, even knowing he hadn't been fed for the day yet he wouldn't take them from me.  I know that he would have clamped down on my arm or leg if I proceeded to try and enter and would have held me for his master.  I tried to make it a fun game for him and slip in, but no matter what I tried, no deal.

The dog was a black bicolor with some tan, was fearless, could herd sheep and was tough as nails.  He would never back down from a good fight.  When in the home he was friendly , but always watched me and would start to growl if I got up suddenly or moved to fast.  And interestingly enough, he was an American Shepherd, line bred off of Lance of Franjo and never was trained except for obediance and some sheepherding, only tested in real time.  Just goes to show  even once and awhile there are some standup American Shepherds. Most of the American Shepherds I know can be gotten by one way or the other unless they have been specuially trained, and even some can't seem to learn this without becoming a hazard.

As for the West German Import showline or workingline, or Czech border patrol blooded GSDs I have known of, absolutely no way could I ever get by them.  I think its mostly genetics and the particular luck of the draw when all the genes get distributed during fertilization coupled with an enriching, confidence building environment growing up.

Uncomfortable means delivery's ,workers, pizza guy,   if someone comes to your home and you feel threatened thats when the dog earns his meals.

Yes there is some bite work, but its less controlled than in schutzund.  more like police work.  they cant fear a weapon and should target anything in the hand, not take a leg.  Police dogs get killed, I know of many dogs losing thier lives in service.

Finally, I have no problem with deadly force.  I know how and when.  I do break a law from time to time, Its called wanton endangerment.   I've always lived in the way out places and have been know to draw down on someone, I used to run with a wild crowd in my youth.  I have done things, lets leave it at that.

The average citizen should pay his taxes, live in a safe place, rely on law enforcement, try not to make enemies, and not pull a gun on anyone.  Your right about people being shot with they,re own guns.   Gun onwership comes with alot of responcabilities including safety.   Most people have no business even owning one. 

I dont raise attack dogs or train my dogs to attack a human.    I am certain without doubt that my companion dog would attack to protect,  especially my wife and in the house, and around my kids when they were younger.   Anything else would be to much trouble, I have neighbors with children now, my kids have friends over, I wouldnt want an accident.

Koehler has a good book and I have my own ways.  I'm satisfied with what I have now.   The stuff I'm interested in now is herding and tracking and agility.

Preston-  Your friend certainly had a diamond in the rough for the dog to not have any training and react the way you said.  Not a common story, although possible some dogs just have it in them and little training is needed for them to know when to fire off.  I myself like to know what type of reaction I can expect from my dog in certain situations so that if they happen I can control it immediately.  I had a dog in the past that was not trained and naturally protective- too protective actually.  We had to get rid of him and not knowing anything then about dogs, training, ect I look back now and think he just had a few screws loose rather than he was a "good dog". lol 

Two Moons, good post.  And Agar, my friend's GSD has been gone now for about 5 years.  Funny thing is he never really wanted to train his GSDs to be protective.  At one time hje tested some of them just to see what they would do. Most of them just were protective enough to be a deterent but very safe around his grandkids.  This bicolor was a bit too protective for his tastes and he wouldn't have him loose around his grandkids.  I liked the dog and thought he was okay.  Many owners of American Shepherds don't like a naturally protective dog because they don't want the liability and fear their aggressiveness, feeling it could be unpredictable.  If one has such a dog it must be managed properly.  My Sch GSD is very easy going and relaxed around visitors who come in with my permission.   But he does alert at any sudden movements and uses progressive increments in force to establish dominance, unless I intervene. The thing I like about a well trained sound GSD with Sch degree(s) is their disciplined response to commands, predictability and total soundness (at least the ones I have seen close up or owned).

I know about those naturally protective, and intelligent dogs. My boy Jake was one of them. No more training than me teaching sit, and come. He was just smart. He didn't percieve anyone as a threat until they proved it. There was only one occasion when my friends were playing around and I protested a bit, Jake took the hit and went for them. I was shocked, that was the only time in his life that I remember he was agressive. That dog was perfect. I know that my Sarah will do it because in a similar situation with the one person asside from my family she simply grabbed his hand and held it gently.

I do not think I want to do anything more with her but the poisin proofing. The young rottie is the real problem. She is who I expect to take Jake's place but I want to know how to ensure that she does turn out like that. Jake wasn't even well socialized, he was just great like that. I do not  even know what his lines are because he did not have a pedigree.

Down here guns are a bit harder to get, and only shot guns are legal for regular citizens. I like my dogs, they can stop the person before they ge into the house, close enough to use a gun on me.

I looked at the top dog thread again and saw that the dog was his newest dog. Maybe the dog was not adjusted enough to be protective of her enviornment, and to confused about who her handler was to resist the introuder.

We had a dog when I was a kid, just a mix breed that wandered in one day.  My mom was primary care giver I guess you'd say , hell I wasnt but five or six.    We had her for many years11, 12, I dont remember.   One evening in the house my mom and dad were clowning around, some frisky adult behavior..lol   anyway my dad must have grabbed mom by the ribs you know how that is and she let out a sqweal.  about that time this small sweet dog came out from under the table and grabbed my dad by the leg.   it was totally out caracter for her and we were all suprised.   I think any dog who loves its owner might protect them naturally out of love.   I think a GSD has more of this natural protective instinct than any other breed. 

Again to all,  I think any dog can be taken but a well trained dog would take more effort.

watsongsd ?  where is down here?  just curious.    a shot gun is nothing to scoff at with the right projectile.

speaknow,  many times I've seen where a criminal has filed suit against a home owner.  I remember a man who went to  jail for electrocuting a burglar who had been repeatedly breaking in to his property.  the man had put a hot wire on a window frame.  the burglar will burglarize no more.  its a shame the guy (homeowner) didnt know a bit more about electricity.  such devices do work as long as its done correctly, but house currant on a concrete floor is deadly.

The laws are different state by state , country by country.   I suggest knowing what they are and being up to date with any changes.   Here in my state deadly force can be used , a citizen can hold someone for arrest by force, and yes you better be right and be able to prove it in a court of law because thats where you'll end up.    As Agar stated most people would not have it in them to use deadly force, and are better off using an alternative.   A dog can be considerd a weapon in my state same as a car.  as sad as it is when there is a gray area unually the best lawyer wins.   the O.J. case is one of the most famous I guess.  I hate lawyers.  

Back to the dogs..... which is what this boards about,   I think everyone should make some effort towards poison proofing their dogs.  This is very common around here, cowards and sneaks, some think its funny.   It can also happen by accident by not being careful with household products, anti-freeze, garbage.

Your dog should be socialized and shown the difference between people visiting and someone prowling, the difference between children playing and adults including teenagers lurking.  This too is not hard to do.  This only applies to yard dogs and pets.   I can see where its not something you might do with your schutzund project. Its a completely different thing.

German Shepherds have all these qualities bred into them, its instinct for them and a good one will always show you these traits naturally even before training.  Even an untrained family pet of less than champion lines will protect and serve its family.  Mine are my family, I could never keep one as a thing to be trained and shown or worked in competition and never made a part of a family.   They require this bond and I believe I do as well.

Micro chips , tattoo's, DNA, all are good ways to protect your dog from theft.   Take alot of pictures and find any markings that are special to your dog.    Fencing, knowing your neighbors, and even camera's are useful for your own protection as well as the dogs.   Video survailence equipment has gotten affordable and I recomend it highly.

Everyone enjoy your dogs.

later.