Active vs Silent guard - Page 4

Couldn't the same be said about a dog that is taught the silent sit?  I think it can go both ways, can't it?

not so much.  the sit keeps the dog in front of the helper and still guarding in the same manner as active, only without the barking.  He can easily start barking, bumping, bothering if he loses the control.  Down-guard effectively removes the dog from the helper, he is out of reach and in a "down stay" as he is taught obedience in this position, unless he breaks position completely he is "stuck there" and is not even close to the helper's body or even able to look into the helpers face from there.  Very effective way of keeping a weak dog "there" to get the points.  IMO.

molly

K9GSD- Agar was placed in the database prior to me owning him so I guess it was a type o when whoever put his title in was entering it.  I'll figure out how to change it, but I was aware he's a ZVVI.  In regards to the screen name I did not realize at the time the name I selected was of a dog named Agar Pohranicni straze.  I merely selected the user name because my dog was named Agar and I am partial to the Pohranicni straze kennel.  I came to find out later that the dog you posted the link for was a great dog who has passed and was owned by Westwood Kennels.  There was no connection to the other dog intended; just coincidence.

My pup has a very convincing bark and hold but in the guard I think I will have him at a silent sit. He gets too pushy, steps on feet and gets right in your face otherwise. I see a greater chance for a dirty bite also when he is up in the helpers face barking. I'd like for him to save his energy, he is a big boy, I'm not doing Schutzhund  but PSA. I agree with Molly that the jumping around can seem game like and makes the dog less ready to actually react to a flee or attack. A good dog will "be" not "look" convincing no matter what way you teach him. I'm not one for flare, I like function and saving his energy for more important work, is what I would prefer to do and I'm sure my big boy will second that.

I can see the use of an active guard on high energy dogs that can't sit still, keep em busy so they don't have time to think about getting dirty but I feel my dog may be opposite of that, if he is moving, it's forward into that decoy. I see saving my trainer more work, my dog more corrections and myself heartache if I keep my dog silent and at a sit. He's not needy and so far doesn't even acknowledge my existance if a decoy is near. Can't imagine him looking back at me for reasurance on the field, especially after we get this down pat. 

I can't see my dog wanting to go into a down right next to the decoy. Can anyone tell me a good reason why you would down your dog in the guard? Dog more solid in his down than in his sit? Dominance issues? Just preference? I know of one being done this way to keep the dog out of the decoys face. Dog was getting closer and closer until teeth were hitting flesh. Another reason I don't want my dog in the decoys face, he is a pushy dominant shit, that will probably push it to the limits. I'd like to keep him in check before it becomes a problem. Accidents happen more than enough, I'd hate to invite stitches on a decoys face by my dog.

I agree with everything Molly has posted here. I too prefer the active guard, however I had one bitch who did the silent guard in the sit position naturally - was not trained - reinforced after starting to teach outs and she just 'did it'.  Yes, ran into a few problems of her checking where I was when adding more obedience/control, easy fix for the dog that does the on their own. Proof in the points that no points were taken for her silent guard - SchH 1 -97, SchH2 -98, SchH3 -99 (under SV & USA judges). She grew stronger with it as she matured in the work and when I would pick her up at the end of the long bite she was always quivering. Tried with her daughter to do the silent guard as I thought she would be dirty with the active guard - that method was not for her, she would start barking on her own, but since she didn't know 'how' to do this correctly I ran into more problems, taught her to do the active guard and her score went up from G/SG to V. When I see a dog in the down position I assume problems too. Sometimes we need to listen to the 'dog' on what they NEED to do rather than what we WANT them to do. Consider the temperment and drives of the dog.

Just my $.02 worth, really isn't worth more than that!

Donna

I like the active guard..   And I don't mind seeing strong dogs bouncing while guarding either.. 

Dogs being pushy, bouncing, face snapping..  Isn't that a training issue? Why not teach the dog to stay clean, i.e, through backtying, blocking, good line handling..  Never give them the chance to form the bad habits.. 

Or is it not that simple? 

 I profess my true and undying love for Donna Rednour....I,d walk to hottest desert,the highest peak,the deepest jungle, and even Axel would take another KOOS seminar if you would come and visit us. ( Dave too)   

Some active guarding dogs I really like were Douglas Surber's dog (I believe it was Artemis).  Loved his guarding. And a female posted recently named Billie I think.  She sounded like a male.   But I also loved the intensity of Aras vom Schwarzen Wachter's out down silent guard.  Just so intense.  Both Molly and Donna make great points.  I think there are pros and cons to both.  Silent guards can help conserve energy yet may give some dogs too much time to just "think" where as active guarding keeps them focused on a job but then some dogs go over board and waste energy.  I've tried the whole go from active guarding to silent guarding.  It only worked for the first out during shows then he would realize no correction was coming and he returned to barking.  It was his natural was of things, I guess I should have left it alone.  Great topic

Karmen

The problem that i have come across with a high active guard is that if a dog is jumping over your head it is very easy to stab or shoot or go at with any weapon . a dog that is in a true silent guard that sways when you sway. bumps when you twitch is a very hard dog to out fight.. Not a platz silent a "ACTIVE SILENT GUARD"

But i also use my dogs that are taught this way for security and bail enforcement work.

This has been proven in my training when we purchase Schutz trained dogs and cross train them for street work.

IMO

Steve Simpkins

Bob,

I'm blushing!! Not sure Axel will agree with you!

Hey it only took 2 years of intense therapy to get him over it, the only side effect noticable is a eye twitch when you say the word KOOS infront of him....