Different training philosophies: sport dog vs real dog - Page 4

I think a lot of clubs and trainers that are very active in the sport do not like to do too much reality work and do not like to bring out too much civilness in the dog probably for safety reasons and liability purposes.  In most club settings they are training for "sport", fun, play and most aren't really worried about if their dog will ever bite for real because that is not what their primary need is.  Their only concern is that the dog excells in the sport and throws up the highest points to it's ability.

I personally like a dog with a little more edge and I am more interested in the training for real work.  The person I train with has experience in both but does not train many PP dogs for people as he feels as most of us do that a. the average person doesn't need that type of dog nor can handle it without extensive handler training and b. for safety and liability reasons.  I have a dog we're training for sport and a dog that is for PP.  Training is done differently for each dog and it's based on the individual goals we set for what I want each dog to perform and the dog as an individual because no 2 dogs are gonna be exactly the same.  The training we do for the sport dog is somewhat repititious and a simplified routine; the training for the PP dog is almost never the same week to week as we switch up scenarios and work on different things, which makes it more exciting for me and I think even the dog.

Often times I am in agreement with Kyle, but I have to take a slightly different stand here.......Most LE dogs do not have the cleanout that a well trained sport dog has not matter what country. They train for it but in a real fight, the out goes "out the window" so to speak. There have been several recent videos (the incident in Arizona and the popular one floating around with the Mals and the french military) if you watch them the handler goes in and "hard outs" the dogs.

I used to take the same stand as many sport trainers do when it comes to LE and dog training. Most are not as good as sport trainers, esp in terms of building  a dog from a puppy and control work. Once I started training with LE and working as an officer, I began to see things differently.

Couple of points I would like to make. When it comes to the out. You do not need, I would not want, as much control in the out for a patrol dog. Additionally, I real strong dog, in a real knock down drag out fight, simply will not out, if it is not a "hard out". You have a fighting, screaming, suspect, blood, pissing their pants and two three four, othre officers in the fight. A hard dog isn't going to just out in this situation, not should they, until the suspect is in control. Then the handler comes in and removes the dog with what they call a "hard out". Even when a suspect "gives up" and they have a dog on them, they are still screaming and thrashing around. hard dogs do not out in that type of situation unless they have an e-collar. I don't care what anyone says.

In my opinion, a dog that will out in that situation is not a dog I would trust my life to on the street. If you have two or three other cops in the fight, and you out the dog, what is the likelyhood the dog will attempt to re-engage and possibly bite one of the officers? Very likely. To expect a dog to out and come back to the handler in that type of situation is just not realistic. It doesn't happen that way. I agree there must be an out in training and with equipment for PR reasons in demopnstrations. In the event of a lawsuit, you need to show the dog will out.

You need to have a call off, that is a given, for liability and safety reasons. If the suspect gives up and there are witnesses, you have a problem. If the dog goes after another officer or a bystandard, you need to be able to call the dog off. In real life, that dog should not come off until the suspect is in complete control and the handler is able to safely remove and control the dog to prevent it from re-engaging another officer.

For reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7m6xWescyM&feature=related

Now the people are going to say "Oh that dog bite is handler that is a crazy dog he is not stable" yada yada yada.

That's just what happens sometimes when you have a real hard, drivey dog. If that dog did out without the handler holding the dog, you think it just might bite another officer?

If you are a cop, or own a junk yard, or you are in the army or anything that require a "Real Dog" then train your dog for real. If you are doing the sport then train a "Sport Dog". How many of you Sport fans have had to have a dog eat someone for lunch to protect you? But, I bet most of the sport fans that like to train "Real Dogs" haven't had a high level of success in Schutzhund? And I'm not talking about a damn club trial with santa as the judge either! I'm talking about real "Success"!

Most people can't do Schutzhund let alone compete at a high level. Just like someone post, it's easier to do protection then it is to do Schutzhund.

There are dogs and trainers that can do both.

 So they can do both. But why??  Like I said how many of you Sport Fan have had to have your dog eat someone for lunch to protect you. The key word or phase here is "Sport Fans"

There are police K9 trials. These are not "real situations" It is for competition just like any other sport. If I ever get the chance to have a patrol dog I will still compete in sport. Doing both is a great way to keep your dog in balance. Maintain a level of control, stay civil and not go too far one way or the other.

A strong sport dog can do just fine as a patrol dog given the right conversion training. Most police dogs are just that. In Belgium and France there are many, many dogs that do both. There are several top level Modio Ring dogs that also work in security, LE, or Military. Ring des Contess D'Hoffman has placed top 5 in the Mondio Ring Worlds as well as National level Belgian Ring sport. Can't remember if he works police or security.

I know a lady who has a dog that worked in the French Transit Authority who is now training in Ring Sport. He isn't going to win the nationals; too much dog, but he has gotten his level 1 and I think is now going into PSA where he could very well be a national level dog.

If you cross train with a good dog, you end up with a very versatile, well rounded, balanced dog.

As to the out with police dogs I guess it depends on your state, agency, and certifying authority.  In the annual certification that I go through in Oregon if the dog does not out with two commands or makes mouth contact after the out you fail your certification.  We also have a call off that is pretty stiff also.  That being said while Barbie is expected to know what out is there may be tactical reasons like GARD mentioned in which a "hard out" is the best and safest way to go in a given situation.

Colleen and K-9 Barbie

Real Dog,  I usually think along the same lines as yourself but I guess here we will have to agree to disagree.

"You have a fighting, screaming, suspect, blood, pissing their pants and two three four, othre officers in the fight. A hard dog isn't going to just out in this situation, not should they, until the suspect is in control. Then the handler comes in and removes the dog with what they call a "hard out". Even when a suspect "gives up" and they have a dog on them, they are still screaming and thrashing around. "

Now we are talking about fight drive here.  Even we humans don't listen to the first, second or third command when fighting for what we believe to be "our lives".  I completely understand having to hard out a dog in fight drive.  I understand a dog should not out until told to do so and how it could be a liability.  Having said that.  The dog that outs on its own is a libility a should possibly be washed out do to nerve or lack of hardness issues.  This is no excuse not to train the out.  Training the out does not weaken a dogs grips.  Teaching the out is absolute like a sitz, platz and blieb.  Also if my K9 is in a fight I'm in there with him not the other LEOs.  

Most people have no idea about cross training and K9 control.  No one ever knows what a dog will do until a real life scenario is encountered.  Also I only expect our house dog to warn and give me enough time to get to equipment to handle a situation myself.

For patrol K9 especially in urban environments control is key.  Lawsuits can be the death to a K9 program. Bad bite on non suspect and having to hard out the dog, eeeewwww.  This type of K9 only looks out of control and viscious and would not be tolerated by a pet owner.  So why should our standard be less.

I loved the video and giggle everytime I see the dog come back at the Handler.  Good dog in fight drive.  But that application is a special dog, not a patrol K9.  There are and have to be differences.

Kyle