Working lines: Longer lived and healthier? - Page 4

I adopted a showline female that was grossly overweight, had unilateral hip displasia and a heart condition when she was 8 years of age.  She lived another good 4 years on good food, lots of human and canine interaction and passed away a week after an impacted tooth had to be removed.  I believe the bacteria from her tooth affected the heart. 

I have now a 9 year old showline female who I believe will become a very long lived dog.  She is so fit and happy.  Good food, lots of interaction with humans and canines.  Always a part of the family.  I adopted her at 2 years of age and she had generalized demodex but since that was taken care of has been healthy.  Beautiful hips on this girl.  Wonderful zest for life.

The other dogs are younger but have never caused me any health concerns and have good hips and elbows.  They too are part of the family and they have lots of human and canine interaction.  I try to keep all the dogs at a good weight.  The young female I have could eat the hair off your head.  Food is a celebration but I have to really watch out that she does not get chunky. 

My friends have working dogs, and they all seem to be just as vital and healthy. 

To clarify a few points I made.

The seminar given by Heinrich Messler (the less than beloved Peter's brother) was specifically about the effects of impact on the anatomy of the Germany Shepherd dog---its neck and back and spine. Messler, whether you like him or not, is a highly respected orthopedic surgeon and professor of orthpedics. I heard the seminar--not at any Sieger Show dinner speech, but on a Breeders Day gathering in Salzburg of the Austrian SV (the SVO) This seminar was given by Messler in many different locations in Germany and I am sure there are probably some other people on this website who may have seen it at one of its venues.

He used slow motion videos and stills, along with surgical photos of the GSD skeleton to make his points. A couple of things I came away with was that the flat and or concave shape of the back one so often encounters in the working lines dog is ill-suited to the shock of impact, especially over time and repeated impacts.  He concluded his seminar arguing the obvious--that we need to improve the drive of the show lines and the anatomy of the working lines.

It certainly was not my intention to start a fire fight. As I said I do not think there has been any published study of the subject. All I can give is my own experience as well as what I know of friends and acquaintances who have owned both. In my experience both in Germany and the US, I would say in my experience  that German lines show dogs---all things, such as exercise, nurture, envirionment etc---being equal that show lines dogs live longer. I think most of my working lines friends both in Germany and the US would agree with me.

Someone here on this thread made the point that working lines dogs do more work than show lines dogs and that is certainly true. Most show dogs will get their SchH3 and that is the end of their working career, with the exception of  practising the attack on handler and the courage test both of which must be done at most national Sieger Shows. There is no point for show dogs to keep competing in working trials as they may well get hurt and end their show careers. For example, look what happened to Wallace Payne's dog at the WDA nationals. Dogs get hurt doing work both in obedience and protection. So, it may  well be that more work equals a shorter life span, especially in view of their anatomical unsuitability for impact..

Gertrude .. sorry i missed the seminar.. i would have liked to ask .. and perhaps someone can elaborate on an answer here on this site:  why are the showline dogs .. and this is related to overall health.. why are they so roached back ! i do not mean 30 degrees as the standard calls at the croup angle .. but clearly many of the high ensd dogs are roached  with i high degree of curvature at the spine . the spine should not be completely flat as this causes excessive wear of the verteba on the underside creating spurs / calcium [ should have a slight arch .it bridges the front and rear ] but the roach creates an opposing problem  too . that is an anatomical and mechanical  situation .. now also why the preponerdance of spinal myelopathy in the GSD . that is a nerological and physiological detriment? even if the anoatmy is correct. show or working . . how can we eradicate these and make the GSD better?

Gertrude, super comment!!

I do not have any substantial evidence to back up my opinion, but I have the impression that workingline dogs have a lot more back problems than showlines. It might be due to the "different" lifestyle, but I wonder. Being German, I participate in German GSD discussion forums as well. At Schaeferhund.net (a forum for working dogs), I have been reading about a lot of complaints regarding dogs being diagnosed with either CE or spondylosis. Some people have been so "disenchanted" with GSDs, that they are ready to switch to a different breed, mainly Malis. Other health problems, like HD, ED, reproductive problems, skin problems or allergies seem to be present on both sides.  As to the back problems: During the last few months, I was on a mission to find a suitable stud dog in Germany for my workingline female before she comes over here. I heard a lot of warnings to stay away from certain dogs and/or not do specific linebreedings due to back problems. It was really surprising, to say the least. We have been involved with showlines for the last 15 years or so, and never ever encountered back problems. As a matter of fact, all my dogs are generally healthy and only see the vet for vaccinations or (if we keep young dogs) for hip and elbow xrays. My oldest dog will be 14 in October, and she is, of all things a VA-Zamb vd Wienerau-daughter. Riane still goes around and lifts her leg like a male, covering the spots where the other females have been. She still chews bones, but her teeth are bit worn down and yellowish. She is crazy over food and will eat anything palatable, never missing a beat. None of my dogs have food related problems. As a matter of fact, if we run out of Royal Canine, we occasionally feed Iams or Natural Choice and no one gets sick or has diarrhea. In addition, they also get table scraps, shame on us. I think some people "humanize" their dogs too much. Also, a lot of breeders have the urge to raise every sickly puppy in the name of humanity. While we care deeply about our litters and will do anything possible to keep neonates safe and warm, we would never go to impossible lengths. If a puppy is weak and cannot be safed with "normal" measures, we let it go. Period!

Alphapup, this has to turn into the "roach backs" again. While some showlines do have roached backs, most do not. It is considered a structural fault and criticised accordingly. My workingline female has the same back as my showlines, and that is why she has a V-rating and a faultless breed survey report. A lot of people get wrong impressions, due to the way some people stack the dogs.Here is a link to my female, please take a look at her back. www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/400203.html This kind of back is desired to counteract the fact that GSDs are stretched animals and need to have a strong back to support their sceleton. I wonder if that is the reason the workinglines might have more back problems.

Chris

Chris the topic is health of working lines .. and a comparative was asked in contrast to "other lines". I addressed internal and external[anatomical ] factors. no intetntion of labelling . but people not well versed understand the terminology of 'roach bach' . this is not only about roach back .. but  genetic makeup ..internal and external play equally a role in overall health .. the STANDARD of the GSD is exactly so .. and i know you are well versed so for others here,. .. there is darn good reason for every measurement ,ht , breadth , width , every angulation from head to toe and chest to tail . [ as well as all the others traits extrinsic or intrinsic]. .. everything affects and  relates to the health and the longevity of the GSD . one factor : the back .. the length , height and as it relates to the neck/head and the croup . a back not in standard IMO creates health problems and hthose type of problems IMO affect the longevity of the dog. one can argue whether a dog roached bvack is worthy of a V rating .. i leave that for another discussion ... chris i saw your photo ..  for my own reasons -i do like your dog .. but i leave for you to compare him to the standard. my gripe : i entered the GSD highend world years ago ..... but what i see  .. things are not what they seem to be.! no specific comment on any dog .. but why have i seen High rated dogs .. with either oversize .. or back or this or that , given there is no perfect dog ..ok... but why with some of these obvious [ and i might possibly say deviations from standard] do they get such a high rating? many times i stated my case .. give me a good V rated dog  fitting the standard that is healthy and can perform it's task [ i allow for various tasks s&r , scent, police  etc] . IMO give the GSD good inherent extrinsic and intrinsic genetics .. working or non-working .. and i no doubt think better health will follow.