inbreeding, great article - Page 3

have to disagree sunsilver, you cant get rid of everything but you can clean up a lot, I have not seen anywhere that people with degrees and professors etc have better breedingresults than "uneducated " people, it takes more than theoretical knowledge

stop breeding to geneticly polluted dogs is a good start, linebreeding doesnot create genetic problems, it only can show you what was there to begin with, outcrossing doesnot make problems go away but only hides it

 

but we are getting into the wrong part of the discussion, the article shows that outcrossing on  inbred lines gives you a bigger genetic variation  than plain outcrossing, this is something of great importance, 

 

please answer following question Sunsilver, ; after you outcrossed everything with everything, where do you go for unrelated blood to continue outcrossing 

Ibrahim, I think some people would disagree about showdogs having better structure

Duke, isn't there frozen semen from past very old distiguished dogs, to use in case a problem such as this one arises? doesn't the SV keep semen ?

 

Ibrahim

I think in SV it is not allowed to use AI  at all 

 

I am, and have been, a huge advocate for the outcross...But you must come back to one line or the other...
You cannot just keep breeding, dogs from different lines. It takes alot of research and planning if you are to produce consistent great dogs.
I have more than one police k9 out there, with a request for more.

This is what I have been doing for years, and I have been very fortunate in what I produce.
I have very strong sound, healthy dogs.
Doesn't matter who they end up living with...the main thing is "They have the potential, to do it all".

A very interesting article and discussion. There appears to be as much variation in a breed as between breeds. That is why we have 40 pound dogs and 140 pound dogs in the same breed.

It reminded me of when I was racing sled dogs teams, which I believe is a pure performance activity and easier to select for, than a show activity which has the element of personel preference by the judge. We would select for the animal with the best performance. The next step was to try to reproduce and improve your best animal, not an easy thing to do. By successfully line breeding and inbreeding we could get a more uniform litter with a higher percentage of good animals. When we had that uniform quality dog the next big improvement was to find an equally good line that was linebred/inbred from an unrelated line. This would bring in the feature we had bred out, which was hybrid vigor. A line of dogs with all the traits you were breeding for along with a turbo charged ability to perform.

We had to start with and select for good dogs with the qualities we wanted before we would line or inbreed.

Performance selection first then expanding the traits we wanted and reducing the traits we did not want.

Breeding a dog bred for performance to a dog bred for show would be similar to  breeding a competitive racing sled dog to a Siberian Husky. The odds are against you in both directions, but there is always an animal to defy the odds.

When I look at the standard of the GSD I think of the origional dog Max started to select for. I believe the structure has been adjusted in the Show ring by the personal preferences of the cosmetic eye. There is nothing wrong with that, if that is your goal. Saying that a show line animal has better structure than a performance animal is a contradiction. Performance dogs are usually worked enough to identify any imperfections. Show dogs are usually not put to enough physical tests to allow their defects to show.

My bias is showing, but I strongly feel that if you select for features that do not include excellent performance, than performance will suffer, and if you select for excellent performance other features will suffer, but  structure, health, and function will not be lost.

 By the size and popularity of showing dogs, it is a very important part of the dog world.

By the fact that performance/working dogs are valued by their ability to perform, this  will keep a solid genetic base when man made structure falls apart.

Everyone, have a good night.

 

 

Excellent post, powerflex with profound example with the sled dogs. Form follows function.

Powerflex, I second Joan's sentiment that you have summarized the importance of line/inbreeding very succinctly.      If I was to become a breeder, I would select a female that is linebred to complement and compensate for my linebred male, but from different lines than my male.     

I have not seen anywhere that people with degrees and professors etc have better breedingresults than "uneducated " people, it takes more than theoretical knowledge.

University professors aren't just in their ivory towers. Many are out in the field, studying the genetics of populations of animals or plants, both domestic and wild. They have access to the cutting edge technology for studying genes that 'undeducated' people can only dream about. If it weren't for the 'educated' people, the 'uneducated' people wouldn't even know what genes were!

 

please answer following question Sunsilver, ; after you outcrossed everything with everything, where do you go for unrelated blood to continue outcrossing 

Duke, that statement is nonsensical. That would happen only in a very small population. The GSD has a huge population that spans the globe. If the GSDs in one country should happen to get too inbred on each other, the breeder would just have to outcross to those from another country. Even if the breeder's resources were limited, he/she could still bring in frozen or chilled semen.

A breeder is never going to have to look too far afield to find dogs that don't show up in his pedigrees for six or more generations back. Most breeders would consider six or seven generations back to no longer be linebreeding.

Let me say something you may have missed. I am not against linebreeding, just against excessive linebreeding!

sunsilver wrote

A breeder is never going to have to look too far afield to find dogs that don't show up in his pedigrees for six or more generations back.

 

really, you think in the german shepherd breed worldwide this is possible when you outcross for lets say 3 generations

 

 

powerflex discribes how breeding is done properly, same as in the article, same as in wildlife

only if you outcross to inbred lines it will have result ,outcross on outcross on outcross that will lead to unavoidable and unplanned doubling up on dogs that happen to be there many times back in the pedigree and many times 2 or 3 or more dogs being back in the pedigree multiple times will lead to nothing stable , but can give individual good dogs by chance, but they will be hard to reproduce themselves

 

finally about knowledge of genes, wildlife doesnot know shit about genes but are able to survive without educated humans for millions of years, there were the Educated humans start to take over , problems start coming