Weaning off of the Toy or Food in Obedience - Page 3

Fawn that isn't the rule.  That's outdated thinking that the dog just has to do it, must obey, etc etc.  Think of the dog as your partner and OB as a dance between the two of you.  You lead the dance, the dog follows, but the dog must enjoy it or he won't participate.  The way to do that is through a paycheck (reward).  Then you have to teacth the dog to have faith.  To go longer and longer with no reward but with the understanding that the reward is coming. 

@mklevin 

First a question for you.  How long do your training sessions last- how many minutes long?

My sessions vary... Generally i like to keep the work around 6 - 8 minutes and then either put him up for a rest in between sessions or call it done and spend some time just goofying off letting my "dog be a dog". There are times that my sessions will go longer depending on what activity we are working on and where he is in the process, sometimes when a session is just not going 'posative' i have to ask for a very easy and basic behavior so my dog has a win and we can call it a day at that point.

I know that a lot of people have hard and fast rules around how long training should last, for me its more about how my dog is doing. If I can see that he clearly understands what is being asked of him and that we are still connected and commited to the game then we continue on but i really try hard to end the session while he is 'Up' and successful.. 

6- 8 minutes with occasional stretches to 10 min is good. How many times would you guess that you reward him in these sessions?

"I'm not weaning the dog off of his rewards or that he never gets a toy.  I'm weaning him off of the idea that he has to think I have it on me or he has to see it or he won't get the reward.  He always gets the reward for the work."

Yep; we're pretty much on the same page.

I like the comment about looking at the obedience work like it's a dance...I'm leading and the dog is following.  Nice way to look at it as a partnership.  But the dog definitely knows when I don't have the toy on me at all.  I don't have a big enough armpit to hide the toy and I don't wear jeans with big enough pockets to stuff the toy in.  I do notice he works harder for his tug than he does for the ball, so I have started stuffing the tug in my back pocket.  That helps, because then I can drop the tug as we start out heeling, and he doesn't really figure it out and he is focused on me.  I also try to make the training sessions brief and each exercise a separate session.  One last comment...it seems to me that the dogs learn the difference between training sessions and trial day very quickly.  And on trial day, unfortunately, he seems more interested in all the other people than he is in me. But I guess that could be a whole other thread regarding training and trailing.

Actually training and proofing.

The dog should always have a reasonable expectation of a reward. That is what keeps them engaged and animated. The reward should not come so much from you as through you.  Having taught my dog yes as a marker he knows when he hears yes he is free to get his reward. Sometimes the reward is on my person, sometimes on the ground , sometimes on my truck tailgate. I always let him see me place the ball before we begin so he knows where his reward is . When he is focused , correct and animated  i mark him and release him to his reward.  The amount of time and number of behaviours he must perform varies from session to session but he must consistently show me focus,correctness, and animation to gain his reward,

There is Teaching...Training...and...Proofing...

In saying that...If I have a dog that will Work For/Drive For Food and a Toy/Ball Then I will Teach with Food...Train with Food and a Toy...and Proof with Food and Toy with Compulsion...I Do NOT trial with a dog without proofing with Complusion...

I prefer using Food for Teaching and Training...then using a Toy/Ball to release stress (Play)...

When getting ready for a Trial I will begin like a month or so out...Withholding the reward for longer periods of time...Longer times in between rewards...Then practice a couple of times with no reward (Food or Toy)...But you can still offer physical rewards...Then after the Trial you would go back to rewarding with Food and/or a Toy...

~Bob~

animation, dance....all this has what exactly to do with the betterment of the breed?

i do it for a pointless fun way to interact with my dog, there is another reason for all this goings on?

haven't been on this forum in a long time.       anyway :     for the original poster. Sch still has not changed .. the more things supposedly change the more they stay the same. the point is :    you have to wean your dog from something because conditioned your dog to respond to the ball that way . IF you didn't train , teach , condition what you did with the ball .... THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO WEAN  and the dog would perform.   in short , the dog continues to do EXACTLY what it is taught. One teaches  to work for REWARD , a ball , etc , whatever the dog percieves as reward ... then  THAT is exactly what you get..... a dog always needing to work for a reward , always needing to look for a ball , always needinbg to expect at some point the ball. So ... what is more important : you or the ball ??

      I never ever teach my dog to work FOR an object / reward. Instead , balls , tugs , are communicating devices. A way to relate to the dog what you wish , and a device that relates to them that we , together performing will lead them to their needs /goals. Dogs need to eat , to play , to chase , to bite  , to be safe etc etc. That is what i use objects for : to communicate and talk to them that perfromiomg something specific when allowed to , will bring them to a goal  ,    we  together. The dog always looks to engage me , to interact with me .... I AM foremost , before tugs , balls ... Their fulfillment is through us ,our Relationship , not by my dog  " looking for a reward". That is why in teaching there is no need for weaning . the dog is taught to perform with me - an US.   My dogs don't work unto themselves. they can work away from me , but it is always an us. ,  100 yards away in protection , heeling , it is a we ...... both in conjuction to fulfill needs. People on this forum will already critisize. But think : when dogs are in a pack ... does one dog get another dog to perform .. just so that it can get a reward ? Absolutely Not ... yet they performtheir taks  in unison. If you train a dog thinking that it performs for a ball ... weaning or no weaning ... that dog is  conditioned always to be  relying upon... getting that ball , sooner or later.  those behaviors taught will extiguish once thew dog figures thyi8ngs oput , or the offering of the reward comes to late. .. the effort becomes uneventful/ also ... DOGS LIKE TO have PRERDFICTABILITY . would wolves show up in a place if they didn't think Caribou would be present. but knowing they will be there , they strategize and are ready for the ambush.  . I communicate to my dogs what the expected results for their actions are. THAT creates BETTER  performance ,RELIABLE performance, because the dog knows what to expect when it offers a behavior.  Also it is taught and has come to believe that performing is in its interest.    Your dog does not work for , nor , with you .. it works for itself, if that. BTW , when Sch people put the ball away , in a pocket ... does one really think the dog does not know it is there , in a pocket. Goodness  people ..  a canine  can smell 1 molecule in the whole Empire State building . Please you Sch people..... you honestly think the dog is that incapable or stupid ??

      now in scientific terms.... dogs will always gravitate to a stimulus. they will go mentally and physically toward the stimulus   e.g.  food , toys , scents etc etc.  Positive training IS NOT MOTIVATIONAL training/teaching. AND IMO , if you have to spend so much time motivating the dog... you have the wrong genetic base in the dog for that task to perform or are not clearly , precisely communicating. TRUE MOTIVATION : the dog continues to perfrom WITH OR WITHOUT the stimulus.  I will skip how that neurologically comes about. OP ,You have a communication and relationship problem before you have a 'weaning from the ball' problem.

       last comment....... dogs don't unlearn behaviors ... but... they can form new behaviors. disassociate , eliminate the old cues , verbal/ words and nonverbal cues/signals and start over with someone that knows how to teach and train dogs.  I can discuss this for days .. this is the QT response.      AP