Prong collar- at what age to start using it - Page 3

Thank you Joanro, I understand. 35 years later, it still amazes me when I see people give a verbal command, the dog fails to reply, then they correct with the prong or E collar, the dog responds and after doing it a few times, the dog LEARNS to wait for the tactile command they know its coming. When I ask these people if they realize what they are doing, they all respond that they are correcting...
 

I use prong collars on my dogs at 28 years or older .. I find after they are dead the collars fit better and have the desired effect.

Interesting point, Hired Dog.  What is your suggested course of action to prevent a dog from falling into this type of response, only responding to the correction rather than the verbal command? I can't recall that happening to me with any of my dogs in the past, but in the past I've had dogs that were more of the pleaser type than the one I have now, so most times a verbal correction or command was all I needed.  I am asking sincerely to learn and understand better, so I don't make that mistake you are referring to.  

Let me see, HD, if I understand what you are saying, using a typical scenario: my dog is on lead in a casual situation, not formal obedience. A neutral dog, on lead, walks past and my dog pulls towards the dog and handler. In order to avoid an issue, I tell my dog (who has basic obedience, not competition trained) to down. My dog is focused and intent on making contact (in a friendly demeanor ) with the other dog and does not comply. So I immediately snap the lead with a sideways pop with my right hand on the lead and my dog then immediately goes to down position while I simultaneously repeat the command "Down". I consider that a correction for not complying with the command to "down".The dog complied. I don't expect my dog to continually repeat not executing my first command no matter the situation. If that is what is happening, the "training" was never successful.
If the dog is being corrected for a bad behavior, ie "lunging" at other dogs, I would give a "strong correction" for the bad behavior, then give an obedience command such as "down", while I have the dogs immediate (if not fleeting) attention.

Thank you, Joanro. That was very helpful.

If the dog pays attention to a dog that's walking by or even pulling towards the dog...What I would do and teach your dog is...Whenever a dog goes walking by...Give a command to "Heel"...and at the same time do a Right Turn and be prepared to give the dog a "POP" on the leash/collar...Make your movement Quick...and walk rather Fast...this way the dog will learn to keep his eyes on you...He will learn that whenever a dog goes walking by to naturally look up at you...You will begin to gain more and more control over your dog with a minimal amount of force and/or correction...And...YES...I would be using a Prong Collar...Place it up high on the neck for the most effective correction...Start off with a small correction and then get a gauge on what's needed to get his attention...

Qman, starting with a small correction and then going up from there is not the right way to get the dog's attention. The dog will learn to ignore and even become immune to the corrections. Better to have the dog feel the power of the correction the first time, leave no room for any doubt as to what will happen if there is no compliance, then, after you have it, your corrections become less and less frequent because the dog does not want to take a chance and getting that correction again.
 

QMan, I agree with your approach to the problem for formal/competition obedience. However, if one is preparing a dog, as an example, for PPd training, it is a detriment, IMO, to teach the dog to "keep his eyes on you" instead of observing and evaluating the immediate environment and learning to behave appropriately.
The dog might be receiving training for service work, in which case "keeping his eyes on you" is not desired. Jmo.

We are in agreement ,HD. That's what I meant when I said I don't expect to have to repeat correcting for not complying, as that would indicate a breakdown in the training.
Also, my comment to Star, to make sure the first correction counts, but also not to over do the correction....the correction should be effective, make a lasting impression without overriding what the correction is for.