Information on Breeding Dutch Shepherds - Page 3

Linda,  my only point and the thing I took issue with in your post, that I was trying to explain the others' reaction to,  was that inferring that a non-FCI working dog is a "mutt" is an ignorant statement that will start an argument you'll never win. AS IF the FCI registries have done any big favors for the breeds in general, LOL. I appreciate GOOD Mals and Dutchies, regardless of where they came from, though at this stage in my life, they're not the dog for me. I have always had APBTs alongside my GSDs and I look at it a bit the same way- to say my ADBA American Pit Bull Terriers are "mutts" because they're not AKC registered is an ignorant and short-sighted perspective. I would put them up against an AKC AmStaff in any arena, on any day, in terms of function, temperament, health.......and the list goes on and on. I understand your point- I just think that without a lot of hands-on experience with those lines of dogs, using the word "mutt" in reference, even in a backhanded way, is non-productive. Not that you care, lol, I'm just explaining my reason for jumping in the middle.  

Working Girl

1. Is the breed recognized in Canada?  If so, get the Dutch registration and register him with the CKC.    If bred to a registered bitch in Canada, the puppies can be registered with CKC, too. As Canadians now can enter the FCI Championship, presumably any buyers of those puppies pursuing IPO will want  the puppies registered for that reason.  ( Canada does recognize some breeds that the AKC does not, and some others earlier than the AKC did.  Picards would be an example).

2. In the US, the AKC has a Foundation Stock program in which some Dutchie breeders are participating, as step on the road to the breed being recognized by AKC in the US.   Some less-than-ethical "Dutchie" breeders register their dogs in Puerto Rico and thereby claim FCI-recognized registration.   That DOES NOT MEAN  everyone registering puppies in Puerto Rico for the FCI -registration recognition is dealing in mixes.  Some highly ethical breeders are doing to for purposes of  competition, particularly international competition.

3. What part of Canada are you in?  If BC, one of the best, if not the best,  Dutchie breeders is the US is right down I-5 from you.

I see the Dislike Fairy has been busy today. What on Earth is there to dislike about Mystere's very helpful post?

Absolutely nothing, Jenni, I do not understand the "Dislike Fairy"
either.   [S/he gets on my wick too and I don't even suffer the consistent
thumbing].  Unless it was just someone hitting the wrong symbol for
Marjorie's post, like Dawulf accidentally did the other week ?

Talking of not understanding,  "apple" somewhat misquoted or mis-
interpreted me, I did not use "mutt" in its perjorative sense, but maybe
he wanted people to think I did.  I only use the word because I am aware
I am writing for mainly US inhabitants on PDB, and "mongrel" is so little
used or recognised on the North American continent, or by those national
-ities who are more familiar with "American English" as a 2nd language
than with idiomatic "English English".  [Not to mention Australia, where it
IS an insult !]   In discussing Malinois x GSD, Mali X Dutch, Dutch x GSD
​(any I left out ?), we are, after all, talking about cross-bred or mongrel dogs.
Those who are breeding these because they find the mixes are better working
dogs are breeding crosses between existing Breeds - but that is not what I
am protesting.  There is nothing wrong with having or breeding 'mongrels' if
that is what they want to do and it achieves the results they are looking for.

So I am sorry if my use of "mutts" was taken to mean I have a problem with
'non-breed' dogs.  [I do have a problem with some of the things people do with,
or claim for, mongrels, but that is for an entirely different thred.]   Does not
bother me in the least when breeders produce strains of cross-bred dogs, as
long as they are not then unfair to their customers by pretending they are pure-
breds.  After all, just about ALL Breeds, as we know them, started as mixtures
of more than one type / purpose from local populations.

But what I don't want is someone dictating to me/us that we can no longer
breed a Breed  (oh I wish there was a different vocabulary !) according to its
Breed Standard simply because they believe it no longer 'lives up' to their
(subjective) opinion of what - all the specimens of - that Breed should be, or be
able to do.

I think those expectations are actually very different from those of the GSD's
founder ;  I really do not know enough about the historical beginnings of either
Belgian Shepherd Dogs or Dutch Shepherds/Herders, but I do not think they
ever had quite the strict (military) guidance that Von Stephanitz provided for
the GSD.  As far as I am aware that is particularly true of Dutchies, which seem
to have more "evolved", from Farm stock, than been deliberately created by their
enthusiasts.  Also I am unsure at what point it was 'decided' that part of the function
of the 4 coat types of Belgian ought to be able to do bitework as well as work sheep.
I assume KNPV did not develop until after the world's Police Forces started using
any dogs with regularity ?

I'd expound on what I think Max was looking for, and how that differs from the expect-
ations of Apple & HiredDog, but I think I have made you read on for far too long, it has
already been said many times by others - some more or less eloquently - and anyway
I already did half this post & then had it vanish on me once, already !    Ciao, guys.
 

Jenni78,  

I suspect it is one of the unethical breeders I referenced, or someone with dog(s) from one.  

Oh, lol. I never thought of that. Nothin' like KNOWING you're unethical and taking offense to the term, I guess. 

Yes, and nothing like having someone know who  is one of those  bitches "most likely to name your unethical ass  publicly."    Now, they will spend the next few weeks  or months hating on me...and thereby outting themselves.  But, watch!!   They will still play victim about it, because they're too dumb to figure that out--even with being told.  

  As the Dutchies become more popular, and attain a higher competition profile, there is likely going to be more competition among the breeders to place dogs.  The first World Championship is this year in Holland.  Next year it's  in Sweden and ...(drum roll) 2016 in the U.S.A.!!     The Dutch World Championship 2016 will be hosted by Cascade, host of the first two Dutchie National Championships in the U.S.    And, yes, a few  breeders are probably worried about being exposed in the interim.  Some handler/owners are "wondering," and others know full-well that their dogs are mixes and any papers they have (and intend to use) are bogus.  Really, that AINT MY FAULT,   but watch the haters swirl, twirl and fling daggers anyway.   Hell, it isn't even my breed!!!     ( At least not at this moment.  But, as one of the best, if not the best, Dutchie breeder  in the USA is in my club,  and the club has a close relationship with top breeders in Holland, should I decide to "expand" into the breed, I will damn sure have  access to the best-- with bona fide registration papers!).  Just saying...

OOOpps !   Should have put "MYSTERE'S POST" not Marjories.
Apols for fumbling fingers, didn't even notice that error until today,
so could not edit.

That Puerto Rico route is interesting, how exactly does Puerto Rico
register under FCI rules ?

I would be surprised, no, shocked, if WorkingGirl3 had anything to do
with any 'scams' worked re Dutchie registration, based on the wording
of her OP.  But I guess ya live and learn, we will probably find out in the
end.  Or did you mean the "Dislike Fairy" ?  In which case I don't think
we will find out who THEY are - and I reckon it is more than one;  seems
to me the   Dislikes  are nowhere near consistent in reaction, to either
people or subject.  Some people have their own ideas who may not 'like'
them, of course.

I don't have any problem with people calling cross bred dogs mutts or mongrels.  The problem with breeding to the standard of a breed, is that the standard is almost entirely based on structure, movement, color, etc.  Only lip service is given to correct working temperament.  How well do you think the dogs at Westminster can perform the tasks they were originally bred for.  I also think von Stephanitz did more harm to the breed overall due his emphasis on structure and movement. The SV put the last nail in the coffin. You don't get the quality of working dogs such as the Dutch and other unregistered Mals/MalX by breeding to a physical standard.  Outcrossing clearly has value, while purebred dogs lead to a genetic bottleneck along with the problem of too much emphasis on looks.

LOL, I didn't notice you said "Marjorie" either. 

The Dislike Fairy is definitely more than one person. Kind of like mall Santa Clauses. ;-)  I like how I got another dislike for posting after Mystere's response. LOL

Hundmutter, ya lost me on what you're saying about  WorkingGirl3 and scams...totally and completely lost. But that's ok. I've had a long day. LOL