Checking Validity of Titles, SV Hips and Kkl claims .. Germany, USA, Canada, other countries - Page 3

The primary difference between the used car business and the dog business is that the used car business has better records and more government oversight.  I'm also not sure that paying more for a dog buys you any security or honesty.  Two sellers selling knock off Rolex watches one charges $100 and you expect a fake and another charges $5000 and you think it must be real.  The payoff story came from a German born person with 40 years in the GSD world on both sides of the pond.  Germans generally don't wash their dirty linen in public unless it is really dirty.  I saw the titled but not trained dog in person after the dog came back from Germany Sch 1.  The dog was to be used for breeding and the title was for the pedigree.  Also purchased a Sch III male in Germany who died of the bloat a week before we were to pick him up in person (I lived there) and return to the US.  Instead we got a Sch II female.  When I asked about the Sch III the seller said no problem .. a week later she was Sch III with all papers and docs.

Is there some point or conclusion you're trying to make here?
 

Sounds to me like bubba is trying an end-run to justify why he can't be bothered titling his dogs in any real capacity or having their conformation assessed and rated by a neutral 3rd party, yet continues to breed dogs nonetheless.

If I were breeding GSDs, I'd absolutely spend the money for the complete, continuously updated WinSis program; as just a dog owner with an interest in the bloodlines, at present it's sufficient for me to use the limited amount of info that Tommy Jensen permits the public to access on his web site, knowing that I won't find the most current information but acknowledging that Tommy and Yvette Hecht DESERVE to be paid for the work they put into that complete system. Though I have no plans of ever becoming a dog breeder of any stripe, I can foresee a time when I'm retired and have time on my hands to really delve into the program, and I'll buy the WinSis for myself and keep it updated.

The point would be that there is no way to check on the validity of titles, show ratings, and Kkl even if you buy the complete Winsis for about $200 and get a yearly update which I believe costs $40-50 per year .. it is not complete and never will be.  Second there are plenty of breeders online and in the PDB using fictional OFA scores, Titles, Kkl, and show ratings so anyone buying a dog had better check very carefully which going back to the first point is difficult to do even for those in the GSD business.  Third the titling of females who have a Sch 1 or an IPO 1 is an open joke in Germany and other countries including the USA.  Many GSD females are given a breeding certificate IPO 1 or formerly Sch 1 because the judge at a local club show or trial knows the owner personally and/or knows the bitch will go to breeding and never trial again.  Fourth dogs for export are often given export title improvements before they are sold and leave the country as a way to increase prices for dogs going overseas.  Many of these dogs are never trialed again because they go into breeding or are not used for competition by the new owner.  Fifth the GSD world and business is full of favoritism and corruption in the awarding of titles, Kkl, and show ratings with the judges being involved as a way to pay for their years of service and time.  The most important part of a breeding program is the females and that is the part of the present IPO system that is most corrupted and weak.  I am also not aware of any sport club, breed club or kennel club that sanctions it's members with significant fines or expulsion for deceitful or unethical business practice including posting false information on web sites.  It appears for the most part nobody in the GSD business cares.  When I see a female in a pedigree with a title that just makes her eligible for breeding and nothing more I have to wonder if the title was earned or given.  The male dog dominated competitive end of the GSD business is equally corrupt with favoritism and cheating being rampant because the winners can rake in stud fees.  Whether a GSD enthusiast participates in the corruption and cheating or chooses to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist the fact is that it weakens the GSD breed and brand.  The biggest threat to the GSD as a breed is not from without, it is from within.

I don't get why checking titles is so hard?  The scorebook belongs to the DOG, no?  So even if a dog has been sold a few times, the current person selling the dog should have the scorebook in possession, no?  If not, seems shady.

VKGSDs,

Bubba is making two points. One point is no matter what the scorebook says, it's not necessarily a real title. The second point he's making is the breed is being compromised and unknowing people are buying into the corrupt system by not being aware of some of what is going on.

What's missing is the next step which would be awareness. What's the difference, how do you tell the difference? What happens to you and your breeding program when you fail to educate yourself and become a victim of what goes on in some parts of the GSD community?

If I were buying a dog and didn't trust the numbers in the scorebook or the person presenting the dog...then I probably would not buy the dog?  But I'm not one to buy a dog simply based on the title/scorebook in the first place, I'd need to see the dog work and preferably not just performing a trial routine.  But that's just me....

VK,

But that's you and it sounds like you know what you are looking for and you know the difference. What about the people that do not? They think all dogs and titles are created equal? One IPO3 German Import is as good as the next. Has to be,,,,lookahere,,, there are numbers and signatures all over the back of the pedigree and one of them says IPO3 so there,,,my dog is as good as any other IPO3 dog out there.

What's missing is the part where the cheap IPO titled dog that is not worthy of what it has accomplished on paper is portrayed as the real thing and sold as such. You paid top dollar for it and it has met the requirements on paper. Why shouldn't you breed it? How does this hurt the German Shepherd in general? That's the real point to consider.

I wondered when this thread would become an rant against organized breed clubs and sports. Well, Santa Claus is a fake. If you see 500 santas in the month of December, each one is a fake. There are many dogs with correct and accurate titles and ratings. There are some which are fake. A little research with a legitimate dealer-owner-broker and you can buy a good dog. No research and a wish to get some where on the ''cheap'' will get you the used car that grandma only drove on Sundays to Church. Why has bubbabirddog been cheated? He can just go get a great dog in his State, drive only 2oo miles and never-ever let Herman the German take advantage of him. I have met many people in the breed and sport who have taught me so much about this great breed. It did not happen over night. There are fakes only because there are real dogs out there. Fake hip certification? Too easy to get real x rays and not be cheated. Fake working titles? Test the dog before signing off for ownership. Fake show ratings? if it walks like a duck, it is not a GSD