This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Ibrahim on 02 December 2013 - 19:12
Hi Susie,
You might be correct generally speaking about type and expression, but and I am not saying this for arguing, rather than looking for the truth.
In critiques expression comment is part of the head cririque, I know this for a fact. Type is a general comment for the total impression the dog shows. I would like to hear more on this.Expression in critique is part of head critique
Ibrahim
You might be correct generally speaking about type and expression, but and I am not saying this for arguing, rather than looking for the truth.
In critiques expression comment is part of the head cririque, I know this for a fact. Type is a general comment for the total impression the dog shows. I would like to hear more on this.Expression in critique is part of head critique
Ibrahim
by SitasMom on 02 December 2013 - 20:12
Ive been taught that "expression" is more about the overall first opinion of the dog.....and includes everything from conformation to temperament and even the mood of the dog on the day of the show.
by SitasMom on 02 December 2013 - 20:12
the critique goes from overall items......
size, build, pigmentation, type and expression,
then goes from head, wither, back and croup
then goes on to hind and front end
then movement and reach
sometimes other useful comments are added.
Examples of recent show..with German Koermister..
Really nice female with a lot of temperament, she is absolutely correct in the size, medium strong, with very good pigmentation. She has a strong head with really good proportions, the eyes should be a little bit more dark. She has a really good topline, I just told the handler, the hair at the croup is standing a little bit up so next time you fix it a little bit. She is correct in angulation and absolutely correct coming and going, she has a lot of temperament, she is always present she is always searching for you and so that the topline is always really good during the whole presentation.
Correct size, medium strong, with a good type and good expression, very good pigmentation. She has a strong head, very withered, firm back, croup could be a fraction longer. Good angulation in the front, very good angulation in the back. She also shows powerful movement, the reachment in front could be a little bit more free
Very good pigmentation and expression. He has a strong head, high withered, croup could be a fraction longer. Good angulations in front, very good angulations in the back, for his age his underchest is a little bit deep, so for the next month you have to take care that the underchest will not be getting more deep. He shows nearly well balanced movement in the fast lap he likes pacing, train him a little bit.
Large medium strong male with a very good pigmentation and also very good expression. He has a strong head, high withered, croup could be a fraction longer, good angulations in front, very good angulations in back, upper chest could be a fraction longer, has a white sport on his front chest, coming and going is correct and he shows well balanced movement, with a good reachment
size, build, pigmentation, type and expression,
then goes from head, wither, back and croup
then goes on to hind and front end
then movement and reach
sometimes other useful comments are added.
Examples of recent show..with German Koermister..
Really nice female with a lot of temperament, she is absolutely correct in the size, medium strong, with very good pigmentation. She has a strong head with really good proportions, the eyes should be a little bit more dark. She has a really good topline, I just told the handler, the hair at the croup is standing a little bit up so next time you fix it a little bit. She is correct in angulation and absolutely correct coming and going, she has a lot of temperament, she is always present she is always searching for you and so that the topline is always really good during the whole presentation.
Correct size, medium strong, with a good type and good expression, very good pigmentation. She has a strong head, very withered, firm back, croup could be a fraction longer. Good angulation in the front, very good angulation in the back. She also shows powerful movement, the reachment in front could be a little bit more free
Very good pigmentation and expression. He has a strong head, high withered, croup could be a fraction longer. Good angulations in front, very good angulations in the back, for his age his underchest is a little bit deep, so for the next month you have to take care that the underchest will not be getting more deep. He shows nearly well balanced movement in the fast lap he likes pacing, train him a little bit.
Large medium strong male with a very good pigmentation and also very good expression. He has a strong head, high withered, croup could be a fraction longer, good angulations in front, very good angulations in back, upper chest could be a fraction longer, has a white sport on his front chest, coming and going is correct and he shows well balanced movement, with a good reachment
by Ibrahim on 03 December 2013 - 03:12
In regards to expression
From GDSDCA, Australia
By Karen Hedberg BVSc
2. Head/Body Section - the adjectives correct, excellent, very good, good, sufficient and insufficient can be added
to any area - the poorer the dog, the lower down the line one goes for the descriptive adjectives.
Head - masculine, feminine; expression, eye colour (dark, medium, light), strength of top and underjaw - generally only
where very good or lacking.
In 2010 I posted here asking about a few terms in critiques, one question was about expression and another was about type, Windwalker had this to say about expression
Windwalker (quote)
. Expression ( is it only related to the eyes or the whole face?) The expression does begin with the eyes, but stop, earset, and width of skull factor in quite a bit also. The overall impression of the face. Like the standard in US says, The look of Eagles, difficult to describe, but unmistakable when present.
In regards to Type
From GSDc, Australia
Type
This is a general, but accurate description relating to the overall 'type' of the dog. The ideal type
being a dog of anatomical proportions and structure that perfectly suits its ability to serve as a
working dog.
Again in above mentioned post, I received this explanation about type from Rik
Rik (quote)
hello Ibrahim, I think you have a good understanding of "type". I don't know of an official definition of type.
To me, it is the recognizable characteristics that tell you the dog you are looking at is a GSD. A "very typey" or "loaded with type" is the dog you can't stop looking at.
Type was not a high priority in the game I played. Just side gait and front extension. If you look at the pic of my female AKC Ch. Trieste (in other thread), this is a dog that I do not consider having strong type. Head is not strong, color is poor.
I am still novice with the German s/l, but to me, it seems that "type" is a primary consideration. The winning dogs all have good color, strong sex characteristics, good bone and coats. The German s/l puppy in my avatar I consider "very typey" or "loaded with type".
best,
Rik
Also AandA gave a precise explanation of type
AandA (quote)
I was going to add my ha'penny worth to this yesterday but waited till I could find this quote from Malcolm Willis which is hard to better:
"Before closing this chapter it is essential to mention 'type' which is a much used word in canine circles, frequently misused and more frequently misunderstood. Type is not about colour, nor is it about size. A 66cm dog and a 60cm dog could be of different colours, are clearly of different size, and yet could be identical in type.
Type is about proportions. The relationship of body length to height at wither, the length of muzzle relative to skull, chest depth to height, upper arm to scapula, and many other relationships and proportions are all features of type and must be understood.
The so-called Bristish Alsation of the 1980s & 1990s is of incorrect type because it has proportions which do not match up with those laid down in the Standard. It is, thus, of a different type to the international kind of GSD seen throughout Europe, South Africa, Australia & Britain.
A judge may prefer a 62cm high male to a 66cm male, but if they are to be 10.9 then there body lengths must be 68.9 & 73.3cm respectively. Despite their size differences they are, in this aspect of proportion, of identical type. Whether they were overall of identical type would depend upon other proportions. Until you can understand proportions in the GSD, you cannot understand type."
Although not mentioned in the above I'm also assuming that a dogs temperament, character & abilities can (& should) also be judged in relation to 'type'.
AandA
I find this article/study by Dr. L.C Donald (a question of type) one of the best that widens one's understanding/perception of type
http://www.rhosyngsd.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=10
I would love to hear more by members what they think expression refers to when used in critiques
Thanks
Ibrahim
From GDSDCA, Australia
By Karen Hedberg BVSc
2. Head/Body Section - the adjectives correct, excellent, very good, good, sufficient and insufficient can be added
to any area - the poorer the dog, the lower down the line one goes for the descriptive adjectives.
Head - masculine, feminine; expression, eye colour (dark, medium, light), strength of top and underjaw - generally only
where very good or lacking.
In 2010 I posted here asking about a few terms in critiques, one question was about expression and another was about type, Windwalker had this to say about expression
Windwalker (quote)
. Expression ( is it only related to the eyes or the whole face?) The expression does begin with the eyes, but stop, earset, and width of skull factor in quite a bit also. The overall impression of the face. Like the standard in US says, The look of Eagles, difficult to describe, but unmistakable when present.
In regards to Type
From GSDc, Australia
Type
This is a general, but accurate description relating to the overall 'type' of the dog. The ideal type
being a dog of anatomical proportions and structure that perfectly suits its ability to serve as a
working dog.
Again in above mentioned post, I received this explanation about type from Rik
Rik (quote)
hello Ibrahim, I think you have a good understanding of "type". I don't know of an official definition of type.
To me, it is the recognizable characteristics that tell you the dog you are looking at is a GSD. A "very typey" or "loaded with type" is the dog you can't stop looking at.
Type was not a high priority in the game I played. Just side gait and front extension. If you look at the pic of my female AKC Ch. Trieste (in other thread), this is a dog that I do not consider having strong type. Head is not strong, color is poor.
I am still novice with the German s/l, but to me, it seems that "type" is a primary consideration. The winning dogs all have good color, strong sex characteristics, good bone and coats. The German s/l puppy in my avatar I consider "very typey" or "loaded with type".
best,
Rik
Also AandA gave a precise explanation of type
AandA (quote)
I was going to add my ha'penny worth to this yesterday but waited till I could find this quote from Malcolm Willis which is hard to better:
"Before closing this chapter it is essential to mention 'type' which is a much used word in canine circles, frequently misused and more frequently misunderstood. Type is not about colour, nor is it about size. A 66cm dog and a 60cm dog could be of different colours, are clearly of different size, and yet could be identical in type.
Type is about proportions. The relationship of body length to height at wither, the length of muzzle relative to skull, chest depth to height, upper arm to scapula, and many other relationships and proportions are all features of type and must be understood.
The so-called Bristish Alsation of the 1980s & 1990s is of incorrect type because it has proportions which do not match up with those laid down in the Standard. It is, thus, of a different type to the international kind of GSD seen throughout Europe, South Africa, Australia & Britain.
A judge may prefer a 62cm high male to a 66cm male, but if they are to be 10.9 then there body lengths must be 68.9 & 73.3cm respectively. Despite their size differences they are, in this aspect of proportion, of identical type. Whether they were overall of identical type would depend upon other proportions. Until you can understand proportions in the GSD, you cannot understand type."
Although not mentioned in the above I'm also assuming that a dogs temperament, character & abilities can (& should) also be judged in relation to 'type'.
AandA
I find this article/study by Dr. L.C Donald (a question of type) one of the best that widens one's understanding/perception of type
http://www.rhosyngsd.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=10
I would love to hear more by members what they think expression refers to when used in critiques
Thanks
Ibrahim
by Ibrahim on 03 December 2013 - 03:12
Examples of Critiques by Mr. Donald, a well known Judge world wide
Dogs that have desirable head/neck, he mentions good/very good expression in head section
P,D&J Murray Kuirau Xquisite Lady
* Vegas v Dongmiran (Ndl) aZ / * Kuirau Oceania AZ
57.5cm –15 mnths - medium size well coloured well pigmented well proportioned bitch,
good head and expression, good ears and ear set, good eye colour, good neck, the wither
should be just a little more pronounced, firm straight back, slightly short slightly steep
croup, would like the upper arm to be a little longer and better laid, good fore just slightly
short underchest, stepping correct behind, good hock firmness, stepping correct in front
with good elbow connection – during movement she shows very good drive and reach
through a firm tight topline.
G&K Stevenson Sundaneka Dark Diamond AZ
* Zony vonhaus Gerstenberg (Gmy) aZ / *Ch Sundaneka Tulua AZ
60 cm – 16 months – broken upper incisor 2 double Pl lower left – large strong dry bitch,
very good expression, dark eye,s good ears and ear set, good reach of neck, good withers,
firm back, slightly short slightly steep croup, upper arm is of good length but should be
better laid,slightly deep hindquarter angulation, good fore and underchest development,
very good length of foreleg, stepping a little cow hocked behind, correct in front, good
elbow connection – during movement she should be firmer overall and more consistent in
demonstrating strength and tightness of the ligamentation.
F. McAdam * Durnstein Dirty Dancing ET AZ
*Ch. Schneeberg Fire Storm ET AZ / *Ch. Durnstein Zensation AZ
57.5cm – 2yrs 3mnths – slightly underdeveloped Pl’s lower left and right – medium size,
typey, medium strong, very well coloured, well pigmented, nicely balanced bitch, very good
head and expression, good ears, good breadth of skul,l good strength of foreface, good eye
colour, good reach of neck, high withers, firm straight back, croup could be just a little longer, upper arm should be a little longer and slightly better, laid good fore and very good
underchest, would like to see forelegs just a little longer, steps correct in front and I notice
her nails are too long, stepping correct behind, good hock firmness, stepping correct in
front, good elbow connection – during movement she shows very good drive and reach and
the movement is very nicely balanced and comes out of a firm tight backline.
M. Scaresbrook * Aldaina Bronach AZ
*Ch Ambala Caprio AZ / *Ch. Aldaina Bijanka AZ
59.5cm – 4 years 6 months –a large strong substantial typey bitch with very good
expression, broad skull, strong foreface, good size and set of the ears, good eye colour, high
wither, firm straight back, the croup is of good length but is set a little steep, the upper arm
should be a little better laid and could be just a little longer, very good fore and underchest
development, good length of forelegs, stands correct when viewed from the front, in most
respects a nicely balanced bitch, stepping correct behind, good hock firmness, she steps just
a little wide in front, effective drive and very good forereach transmitted through a straight
firm backline. As a substantial bitch she needs to be kept in hard dry condition and whilst
she started the gaiting with the required level of energy and groundcover after prolonged
gaiting she tired, her groundcover became diminished and this cost her first place.
Knight B&V/Baker C *Ch Bruvic Wild Orchid AZ
*Ch Kardin Kruger AZ / * Lashadas Butterflykisses AZ
58.5cm – 3 years ll months – an above medium size, strong, substantial, typey, elongated,
powerful bitch with very good head and expression, good ear set, good breadth of skull,
strong foreface, good eye colour, strong neck, good withers, straight back, good croup,
upper arm is well laid but should be a little longer, very good hindquarter angulation,
forelegs should be just a little longer, stands correct viewed from the front, steps correct
behind with good hock firmness, steps a touch narrow in front, good elbow connection –
during movement she shows a powerful drive with very good forereach transmitted through
a firm straight backline. I would prefer to see a more natural action in regard to the tail
carriage
When a dog has less than desirable head/neck he does not add description of expression at all
Jara/Morris Freevale Serious Stuff
* Freevale Nothing Too Serious AZ / *Ch Freevale Trick Or Treat AZ
59cm – 13 months - above medium size mediums strong well coloured well pigmented
typey bitch, eyes should be just a little darker, good ears and ear set, strong neck, high
withers, firm straight back, slightly steep croup, upper arm should be just a little better laid,
very good hindquarter angulation, very good fore and underchest development, good
length of foreleg, stands correct when viewed from the front, stepping cow hocked behind,
stepping correct in front, good elbow connection – during movement the cow hocks impede
the rear drive.
J Delriego Pamakay Electra AZ
* Dellahund Party Prize AZ / * Astasia Hera AZ
60 cm – 17 months – large just medium strong bitch very good colour and pigment
expressive dark mask eye should be a little darker ears should be a little higher set like to
see a little more strength of the neck wither should be higher firm straight back short steep
croup upper arm should be a little longer very good length of foreleg good fore slightly short
underchest stepping behind hocks should be firmer stepping from the front elbows should
be tighter – during movement the drive and reach are a little restricted she falls slightly on
the forehand.
T Devine Asterhund Jewel AZ
* Fellow v Santamar (Bel) aZ / * Asterhund Evangelina AZ
60cm 21 months – large, slightly fine, beautifully coloured bitch, she should have a little
more substance in the skull and foreface, dark eyes, good ear set and size, good length of
neck ,withers should be a little more pronounced, straight back, slightly short slightly steep
croup, upper arm should be better laid and be a little longer, slightly deep hindquarter
angulation, good fore and underchest development, good length of foreleg, stands slightly
east west viewed from the front ,ideally should have a little more forechest development,
stepping a little cow hocked behind, stepping slightly wide in front – during movement she
shows good drive and reach through a firm back, ears should remain a little firmer during
movement.
I stronly believe Mr. Donald is a good school For GSD, his critiques and studies/books on GSD can help a student understand GSD much better.
P.S: Since we're discussing breed development nowadays; vague and inconsistent critiques by some judges do not help, seeing some critiques make one wonder if those judges did their breed education well enough !!!!!
Ibrahim
Dogs that have desirable head/neck, he mentions good/very good expression in head section
P,D&J Murray Kuirau Xquisite Lady
* Vegas v Dongmiran (Ndl) aZ / * Kuirau Oceania AZ
57.5cm –15 mnths - medium size well coloured well pigmented well proportioned bitch,
good head and expression, good ears and ear set, good eye colour, good neck, the wither
should be just a little more pronounced, firm straight back, slightly short slightly steep
croup, would like the upper arm to be a little longer and better laid, good fore just slightly
short underchest, stepping correct behind, good hock firmness, stepping correct in front
with good elbow connection – during movement she shows very good drive and reach
through a firm tight topline.
G&K Stevenson Sundaneka Dark Diamond AZ
* Zony vonhaus Gerstenberg (Gmy) aZ / *Ch Sundaneka Tulua AZ
60 cm – 16 months – broken upper incisor 2 double Pl lower left – large strong dry bitch,
very good expression, dark eye,s good ears and ear set, good reach of neck, good withers,
firm back, slightly short slightly steep croup, upper arm is of good length but should be
better laid,slightly deep hindquarter angulation, good fore and underchest development,
very good length of foreleg, stepping a little cow hocked behind, correct in front, good
elbow connection – during movement she should be firmer overall and more consistent in
demonstrating strength and tightness of the ligamentation.
F. McAdam * Durnstein Dirty Dancing ET AZ
*Ch. Schneeberg Fire Storm ET AZ / *Ch. Durnstein Zensation AZ
57.5cm – 2yrs 3mnths – slightly underdeveloped Pl’s lower left and right – medium size,
typey, medium strong, very well coloured, well pigmented, nicely balanced bitch, very good
head and expression, good ears, good breadth of skul,l good strength of foreface, good eye
colour, good reach of neck, high withers, firm straight back, croup could be just a little longer, upper arm should be a little longer and slightly better, laid good fore and very good
underchest, would like to see forelegs just a little longer, steps correct in front and I notice
her nails are too long, stepping correct behind, good hock firmness, stepping correct in
front, good elbow connection – during movement she shows very good drive and reach and
the movement is very nicely balanced and comes out of a firm tight backline.
M. Scaresbrook * Aldaina Bronach AZ
*Ch Ambala Caprio AZ / *Ch. Aldaina Bijanka AZ
59.5cm – 4 years 6 months –a large strong substantial typey bitch with very good
expression, broad skull, strong foreface, good size and set of the ears, good eye colour, high
wither, firm straight back, the croup is of good length but is set a little steep, the upper arm
should be a little better laid and could be just a little longer, very good fore and underchest
development, good length of forelegs, stands correct when viewed from the front, in most
respects a nicely balanced bitch, stepping correct behind, good hock firmness, she steps just
a little wide in front, effective drive and very good forereach transmitted through a straight
firm backline. As a substantial bitch she needs to be kept in hard dry condition and whilst
she started the gaiting with the required level of energy and groundcover after prolonged
gaiting she tired, her groundcover became diminished and this cost her first place.
Knight B&V/Baker C *Ch Bruvic Wild Orchid AZ
*Ch Kardin Kruger AZ / * Lashadas Butterflykisses AZ
58.5cm – 3 years ll months – an above medium size, strong, substantial, typey, elongated,
powerful bitch with very good head and expression, good ear set, good breadth of skull,
strong foreface, good eye colour, strong neck, good withers, straight back, good croup,
upper arm is well laid but should be a little longer, very good hindquarter angulation,
forelegs should be just a little longer, stands correct viewed from the front, steps correct
behind with good hock firmness, steps a touch narrow in front, good elbow connection –
during movement she shows a powerful drive with very good forereach transmitted through
a firm straight backline. I would prefer to see a more natural action in regard to the tail
carriage
When a dog has less than desirable head/neck he does not add description of expression at all
Jara/Morris Freevale Serious Stuff
* Freevale Nothing Too Serious AZ / *Ch Freevale Trick Or Treat AZ
59cm – 13 months - above medium size mediums strong well coloured well pigmented
typey bitch, eyes should be just a little darker, good ears and ear set, strong neck, high
withers, firm straight back, slightly steep croup, upper arm should be just a little better laid,
very good hindquarter angulation, very good fore and underchest development, good
length of foreleg, stands correct when viewed from the front, stepping cow hocked behind,
stepping correct in front, good elbow connection – during movement the cow hocks impede
the rear drive.
J Delriego Pamakay Electra AZ
* Dellahund Party Prize AZ / * Astasia Hera AZ
60 cm – 17 months – large just medium strong bitch very good colour and pigment
expressive dark mask eye should be a little darker ears should be a little higher set like to
see a little more strength of the neck wither should be higher firm straight back short steep
croup upper arm should be a little longer very good length of foreleg good fore slightly short
underchest stepping behind hocks should be firmer stepping from the front elbows should
be tighter – during movement the drive and reach are a little restricted she falls slightly on
the forehand.
T Devine Asterhund Jewel AZ
* Fellow v Santamar (Bel) aZ / * Asterhund Evangelina AZ
60cm 21 months – large, slightly fine, beautifully coloured bitch, she should have a little
more substance in the skull and foreface, dark eyes, good ear set and size, good length of
neck ,withers should be a little more pronounced, straight back, slightly short slightly steep
croup, upper arm should be better laid and be a little longer, slightly deep hindquarter
angulation, good fore and underchest development, good length of foreleg, stands slightly
east west viewed from the front ,ideally should have a little more forechest development,
stepping a little cow hocked behind, stepping slightly wide in front – during movement she
shows good drive and reach through a firm back, ears should remain a little firmer during
movement.
I stronly believe Mr. Donald is a good school For GSD, his critiques and studies/books on GSD can help a student understand GSD much better.
P.S: Since we're discussing breed development nowadays; vague and inconsistent critiques by some judges do not help, seeing some critiques make one wonder if those judges did their breed education well enough !!!!!
Ibrahim
by SitasMom on 03 December 2013 - 10:12
I sent a note to the judge to expand on the meaning of type, expression, and strong are, hope he answers quickly.
by SitasMom on 03 December 2013 - 11:12
Ibrahim, Louis is FCI judge and ours was a SV....I wonder if this is why there's a difference?
by Ibrahim on 03 December 2013 - 11:12
SitasMom,
That will be interesting to see the judge's answers. Meanwhile I know we have members here whose experience is no less than a good judge, they are requested to chime in and shed more light on some confusing terms.
Regards
Ibrahim
That will be interesting to see the judge's answers. Meanwhile I know we have members here whose experience is no less than a good judge, they are requested to chime in and shed more light on some confusing terms.
Regards
Ibrahim
by Ibrahim on 03 December 2013 - 11:12
Not sure about that, but Mr. Louis, in my opinion, is a genius, a real valuable reference.
by Ibrahim on 03 December 2013 - 12:12
From above mentioned article, for those who can't read all of it, here are some quotes concerning type.
Quote
There is only one `standard type'. Type, to my mind, is created by the fusion of the dog's constitution, sex characteristics, size, expression, temperament and conformation. These things are set down in the standard and should not be open to variation. Variations from the standard type must be avoided, particularly by the judges. For only by judges consistently placing standard types to the fore can the average be raised.
End of quote
As you can see, expression is one constituent of type.
Type is broader than expression
Ibrahim
Quote
There is only one `standard type'. Type, to my mind, is created by the fusion of the dog's constitution, sex characteristics, size, expression, temperament and conformation. These things are set down in the standard and should not be open to variation. Variations from the standard type must be avoided, particularly by the judges. For only by judges consistently placing standard types to the fore can the average be raised.
End of quote
As you can see, expression is one constituent of type.
Type is broader than expression
Ibrahim
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top