Was wondering if someone here could explain why this SL dog has turned out a great guard dog - Page 3

Hi Susie,

Hard is an under statment. Too many people need the dogs to make them look good I am sure. They refuse their males in fear someone will do better then them. I thought that was the whole idea, to make better dogs. Yes I am looking for a stud to have with me due to being messed about on males. They will even have you drive interstate knowing they don't plan on having the male there. 3 times I have gone interstate to use males and came back with nothing happening. Am expecting to drive  3000km for a male soon, he will be there :) One way, but he is old. It is hard for me to go all the time having many pets to care for.
I was going to quit and my vets said if I do things wont change, so I do it heavy hearted knowing the mess it is in this country and the egos it feeds doesn't help the breed. I am even thinking of moving to be closer to training areas and other dogs, but here I have the best place and room to set up my own training group, kennels and the room to do things.
The working line dogs here are nothing compared to the world, they line breed more then anything and try without considering the the problems as long as they get what they are wanting.
In the 7 years of being involved with the GSD working lines, it has been the last year everything has come to the surfuse and reveled itself, and it is ugly.

My girl is special,  you would say was a male, she is tough, fearless and protective and that is her genteics. She passes herself off, her 11 month old pup protected his owner the other week. This is what lacks in most the lines I have seen here. Though there are breeders out there who we would think where the leaders in working lines, refuse to use you or give you their best male, talk crap to you and think you don't know anything. I know they need what I have, but they are not willing to do better with you then they can do. So you see why I am looking for a male.

I see the difference in the lines and understand why there is a difference and see what they see. My girl comes, from her dads side, something they did back 20 years ago, which is also questionible. They used show lines back then to make the lines. Though I must say I see why now. She is a low drive, serious civil drive. She is mangable and loving to who she likes. She got put though a set of bite sleeves the other day with the imported line dog I have they use for the police and her pup. The difference in bite was crazy. All 3 bit hard and could be lifted off the ground, all of them, but my bitch could make you feel her through the sleeve, which the other 2 couldn't, didn't, which ever. But this one wanted more with her crushing grip. Many that see her like her and there are others that like dogs spitting teeth snapping all the time, I could of had that, but I have no need, so they will and others will say she is not good. But I know what I have and want more of her for me.
Being up to my 4th working line shepherd.

Though because of her I have found out more and look deeper into the lines, the dogs and what weaknesses and strengths they have. Most people here can't even tell you who their dog is, as someone told me I can the other day.

But I also know a SL dog more protective then my girl and was sold to protect. So when you find a SL with working line traits, would you not use it because of it is SL ?

Looking for both, males and studs even, anything and everything up for use to see what will work best with my girls

I will give another vote to VA Odin Tannenmeise producing good working qualities.  I owned Zena von der Hollenburg, a granddaughter of VA Odin via her father Bodo v Baybachtal (no Jeck).  She was a hard biting, high drive bitch that would never back down.  In fact she bit my friend, a K9 handler/trainer, when he attempted to "show me" that show lines will "always run"..oops!   I yelled at her to 'out' pretty quick but she still had him bleeding through the heavy winter jacket he had on.  I ended up having her live with my parents as my dad has racing pigeons and she patrolled the lofts for various varmints.  She loooved to fight with wild animals and she was lightning fast.  She could kill a raccoon with one bite, just breaked his spine with one crushing bite.  We lost her in 2010 to cancer..miss her terribly.  She was a great dog.  I have working lines now, but I'd take one like her again in a second.  

Thanks Valerie for your input

It is important to note that working line (Profung) and showline (Zuchtschau) GSDs came from the same lines and litters until they were bifurcated back in the 1960s and 1970s.   Lasso di Val Sole was an all time great and still can carry tremendous temperament in some dogs shown in Zuchtschau even today.  And yes, Mutz Pelztierfarm's blood even today is still potent for temperament. And Bodo Lierberg too.

Some litters are consistent, some mixed.  And there are always individual superstars that occasionally emerge with ideal temperament in even the show lines, although far less than in properly bred working lines.

But training is a major factor in bringing out potential that exists in any sound GSD, WL or SL.  Optimal training of a sound GSD with correct temperament can attain wonders. In a gifted dog it can produce winning performances in profung.  So basically having the best Schutzhund or IPO training possible is important and unless one is a great trainer himself/herself, then selection of a top professional is necessary if one wants to win.

My choice for a great trainer who is in driving distance for me, a real up and comer and someone who I predict will become recognized as one of the very best trainers ever anywhere, here or in Germany or in Europe.  His name is  Rolando Salvador.  This man is absolutely impressive.  His training skills are the best I have ever seen and he is great guy to deal with. He likes the dogs, they like him and he treats them very positively.  But he gets top results and in a short time too. I respect the way he relates to the dogs and trains them.  They love to work to please him.  This is the way training should be IMO.

Profung people will probably be hearing much more about Rolando and his GSDs.  Here is a video clip on one of his WL dogs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtlHDwRhsos&feature=relmfu


And some more:
http://www.youtube.com/user/gripman?feature=results_main

Rolando has a young bitch Bella that he is training now that is an absolute superstar. I think this bitch is going to be as good as anything anywhere anytime.

I can tell you why breeders start to narrow their thinking and because time is money the breeders won't look at anything besides what is within their focus and as a collective this thinking has spread to where they know what works for them. Once they learn what people want to purchase, and what sells they stick to that. Because they are in business to self promote and they try to discredit free thinkers. It's actually how humans are with alot of things.
 The reason the SL was a good guard dog is because they let the free market work in a sense and let the GSD do what they do, and have done for a long time without the unatural effects of people trying to reinvent everything they get their hands on.

Wow thank you everyone for so much information. And amazingly enough, without taking it all into consideration before, sometimes we have to jump out the square we live in.
I have a friend with lines mentioned, Mutz and he is very trerrororal and protective of his family. Am told they had to retire his father and no doubt many more as they got into adulthood.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=578380

The breeder told them he would be protective, but he makes most WL look like SL with his protectivness. Sadly when he got taken to sch, he was made to sit in the car. When got as a pup, it wasn't known that he would turn out like he did.
But then I think it is looking for what each dog has to bring up to the table and see if what the male has complaments the bitch, no matter if WL or SL. And as meantioned earlier about mixing the 2 might only count if you pick the right 2 dogs to put together, I think. Hoping for feedback, as I am not experanced, just knowledgable taking a thought about guess.
When I look at some of the SL and see , they have one great dog coming through 16 dogs in its 8th Gen pedigree and maybe another dog, 10 time, I can only guess the lines will have to take over and resurface to the top. Then knowing the lines over several generations, knowing they have shown working ablities, this would make a differnece to what you would get if put to WL's.

So am I correct to think this, like I said I am new to all this compared to all you fine people answering me. And like a jigsaw puzzle, I am trying to make a picture of my thoughts and using you as my bouncing it off.

My dog Commander was sired by one of her (Tracy's) dogs and that was the most courageous, intelligent, clear headed great instincts, rise to whatever level is needed dogs I have ever met.  That was my heart dogs.  I have all working lines now, but I would give almost anything to have a dog like that again.  He saved my life on several occaisions.   

To answer your original question : You will never know. End of story. 

Nord II Suche Lazce, Vanessa z Eurosport, Nurma Dlha Roven .... all conformation dogs, all protect for real.

The were trained correctly,and  they have the correct temperament and plenty of conficence, all have completely safe natures and are levelheaded.


A while back a thread was dedicated to finding conformation bloodlines with true working ability.... if you can find it, maybe it could help in finding what you want. Ibraham, do you remember the title?

Yes, it was " Top Showlines with good protection phase"

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=481467-top-showlines-with-good-protection-phase