White spot on chest in German Sheperds? I`m confused... - Page 3

Hundmutter, getting  white at the age of 8 is part off getting older, i was talking, more say in a litter at 6 -8 weeks, i had a friend have a litter with  some pups with white feet and one with  a white tip on his tail, some lines carry the white pretty strong while  others dont and only 1 parents only needs to carry the white to get it.  i dont see white tips on tails very often , but there there, i do see alot of  white on chest and a little on feet/toes , most does go away.
i would not buy a puppy with white feet and white tail , i am ok with  just a little on  the puppy chest. i try to stay away from white if i can, but its not easy.

Genetically speaking white spotting has no relationship to pure whites - it is a specific genetic trait and no big deal other than it stands out more than it used to as the  fascination with rich black and gold becomes greater.

So the black 4-yr old I mentioned, Louis:  his white chest and toe marks are nothing to do with his all-white,
from white lines, Sire ?   This spotting has only come though his fairly well bred and very solid Black dam ? 
(And her grey and black/red ancestors).

Hmmm, interesting.  I knew 'spotting' was different genetically from white coats;  but as white dogs in lines
tend to indicate other 'off' colours in the same lines, I thought there was cross-over.

There have been a few light hairs on the chests of many of the (various shades of) black&gold/red dogs I
have known;  my last bitch for instance was very dark as a youngster, but as she aged she gradually paled
a bit until her underneath, inner legs, feet etc got creamy.  But the lighter hairs among those on her chest
did not ever form a distinct WHITE patch;  and nor did other dogs I knew of various shades/ages have white
patches.  I started to see very distinctive very white patches on dogs of quite young age at Shows, as I
said.

Trixx:  The only times I've seen white tail tips on puppies I have assumed (generally with good reason) that
they were not purebred !

Dear Ivan,

     Instead of asking this list, you should have looked up the breed standard for an unequivocal answer. 

     Before I answer what the standard says, let me state that show dogs are weighed as an entire dog and just because it has one fault doesn't mean it isn't overall a very nice example of the breed. A fault may be obvious, but not major. On the other hand, there are some champions with some pretty serious faults out there. I once saw a dog with a 3/4 pink nose, a DISQUALIFYING fault: "nose not predominantly black", get a major reserve when it should have been kicked out of the ring.
    As it turns out, the answer to your question depends on which organizations’ standard you refer to.  Neither the AKC nor CKC standard even mention white markings.  The SV (“International”) standard permits “inconspicuous small white chest markings.”  Therefore, conspicuous chest markings would be a fault; I’ve often heard this applied in practice as a marking larger than the size of a US quarter coin.  Clearly the larger the marking, the greater the fault, but still a large spot would probably weigh in as a lesser fault than any faults of structure or temperament.  As white markings are not disqualifying faults by AKC’s, SV’s or CKC’s standards, dogs with white markings can be shown in all venues.   Below are the portions of the actual standards that pertain to color and pattern
 
From the “International Standard”
 
Pigment
Black with reddish brown, brown, tan to light-grey markings. Solid black, grey with darker overcast, black saddle and mask. Inconspicuous small white chest markings, as well as lighter pigment on the inside of the legs is permitted, but not desirable. All dogs, no matter what their color, must have black noses.
Missing mask, light to white markings on the chest and inner leg sides, light toenails, and a red tail tip are signs of faulty pigmentation. Undercoat has a slight grey cast. White is not permissible.
 
From the GSDCA/AKC Breed Standard:
Color – The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred.
Pale, washed-out colors or blues and livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.
Disqualifications – ….. white dogs; dogs with noses not predominantly black; ……
 
From the GSDCC/CKC Breed Standard:
Colour
The German Shepherd Dog differs widely in colour. Generally speaking, strong, rich colours are to be preferred, with definite pigmentation, and without appearance of a washed-out colour. White dogs are to be disqualified.
Disqualifications
Albino characteristics; …… white dogs.
.

So the black 4-yr old I mentioned, Louis:  his white chest and toe marks are nothing to do with his all-white,
from white lines, Sire ?   This spotting has only come though his fairly well bred and very solid Black dam ? 
(And her grey and black/red ancestors).

It's not that it didn't come from his mom, it's that the white spotting gene is not connected to the gene that causes the white color. So she might have/carry heavy white spotting, but you wouldn't know how much white spotting the mom has or carries because, of course, you can't see the white spots on her.

Christine

Christine, I wasn't arguing with him.
I realise that there could be some white spotting, genetically hidden or not, in both the sable working lines
on one side of her pedigree, and in the black and red dogs on the show side - possibly more from the
latter direction, in fact, given that in recent times the number of show dogs with white patches does seem
to me to be increasing exponentially.  BUT from what I have seen of dogs from the kennel involved in the dam's
ancestry and what I know about that breeder, it is unlikely that he has deliberately perpetuated the spotting
alleles where he could avoid doing so.

I have no such faith in the breeding methods behind the white sire;  who may be genotypically self-white as
well as phenotypically;  but his ancestry contains an assortment of dogs, some of which were 'coloured' and
may therefore them selves also have carried genes for spotting as well as white coats.

The overall effect is that put to a phenotypicaly solid black, there is a LOT of expression of the spotting, in all
the puppies in this particular litter EXCEPT THE BLUE SADDLE-MARKED couple I hadn't mentioned, so I expressed
my surprise that Louis could be so definite as was implied  by his post.  No reason the pups couldn't  have
inherited the genes responsible for both expressions, from both sides ?

There surely therefore is also the possibility that these genes are a 'linked' series;  and that where they appear
together, there is greater likelihood of stronger expression of the spotting if there is also some genetic dilution
of pigment at work ?  I really must research how much more sure of the genetics involved in whites is now solidly
known, as my current frame of reference is Malcolm Willis (who said "More information on whites seems called
for" - in "Genetics of the Dog"). 

I have seen several Erri z Blatenskeho zamku progeny with white chests. Mine even had a white tail tip at 8 weeks old.
No white dogs in that pedigree:).

I didn't say it always HAS to be there;  am talking about one litter, and the circumstances that could
apply to a litter like that - not  EVERY litter with white patches on pups in them ...

There is actually an association between solid white and white spotting in that dogs of ee (recessive white/cream/yellow/red) genotype do tend to have larger areas of white (visible on off white and darker ee expression, and also in newborns) but this doesn't pass on to non white (Ee) progeny, so white ancestry shouldn't have influence on the extent of white on non white dogs.

The areas of white spotting are devoid of all pigment ie the pigment migration has not reached this location and as this migration continues well after birth, we see these patches reducing in size as the pigment fills in.  I don't see any way that white patching can have effect on pigment intensity of the coloured areas.  These are controlled by different genes.  In some cases though, white patches are not under genetic control.  Pigment cell migration is somewhat random and a phenomenon known as 'developmental noise' can interupt normal migration paths to leave some areas devoid of pigment.

Since I see Pod bringing up genetics, which I am always trying to learn more about--what about this masking gene in whiyrd> I want to know how that workd and why they are the only ones who do that? I mean I don;t know about every white breed==I am talking GSDs here. I saw where neither parent was sable--dad was white, mom was blk and tan, but yet there were sab le pups and the breeder said the male carried a masking gene for sables. OK.............