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by Duderino on 20 July 2011 - 14:07
P.S. According to my Euro friend, to the non-KNPV types, Jan is very worried about his grips. However, like every breeder/broker in the dog world, if you want to buy it, it's the best dog ever and it is for sale.
by vincentpmchugh on 20 July 2011 - 18:07
Halusetha's Igor NHSB 1737168 IPO III FMBB 98-1 DUTCH DOG
by Duderino on 20 July 2011 - 19:07
According to the FMBB web page, since 1992 dog/handler teams from Germany & Belgium (the countries I personally prefer for SchH/IPO type Malinois bloodlines) have placed 29 times in the top 3, if you add the World Cup (instituted in 2010), that adds 4 more for a total of 33. This year in particular, not one dog from the Netherlands made it into the final 20 while 5 were from Germany and Belgium and 3 from the U.S. (way to go boys). During that 20 year span ('92-'11), 4 dogs from the Netherlands placed in the top 3 with 1 actually being from the du Boscaille kennel.
by Hired Dog on 20 July 2011 - 23:07
Gentlemen, please correct me if I am wrong, but, shouldnt selection of the proper dog for your particular interest be the most important thing? In Holland where the pre dominant sport is the KNPV, they breed dogs mostly geared towards that end. In Belgium towards NVBK and in France FR. Each sport does have its own unique requirements and breeders breed with that in mind.
Now, I am sure there is a Malinois in Holland that can indeed do NVBK where grip is penalized if not full, but, if I want to compete in that sport, I will get a dog out of NVBK lines that has been proven in my arena of interest.
Those who are interested in Sch will/should pick a dog out of lines that have proven themselves in that field...Should our breed be able to compete in any of the major dog sports? Of course it should, but, that is also not being very realistic about it.
Like it or not, different sports have different requirements and as such we must choose our dogs carefully. Again, I am not putting down anyone's lines or breeding program, there is something out there for everyone. For me its the dogs that come out of the NVBK lines, in my opinion, are the best all around dogs for sport, maybe not Sch, but others, and for real life work.
Now, I am sure there is a Malinois in Holland that can indeed do NVBK where grip is penalized if not full, but, if I want to compete in that sport, I will get a dog out of NVBK lines that has been proven in my arena of interest.
Those who are interested in Sch will/should pick a dog out of lines that have proven themselves in that field...Should our breed be able to compete in any of the major dog sports? Of course it should, but, that is also not being very realistic about it.
Like it or not, different sports have different requirements and as such we must choose our dogs carefully. Again, I am not putting down anyone's lines or breeding program, there is something out there for everyone. For me its the dogs that come out of the NVBK lines, in my opinion, are the best all around dogs for sport, maybe not Sch, but others, and for real life work.
by Duderino on 21 July 2011 - 02:07
Yep indeedieduderino
by vincentpmchugh on 21 July 2011 - 03:07
My intention is not to breed dogs for sport, but for military and police work. I participate in Schutzhund but have not breed for a sport dog, I think that when breeding for a particular sport you miss out on certain characteristics that are needed for other more important factions that the working Malinois excels in.
For example I would say that a dog with true aggression and fight are not particularly appealing for sport people because they expect a dog to just latch on and be driven nicely in the pocket. When aggression is introduced and you have no idea how to deal with it in a sport arena you get a dog with chewy bites that shakes itself off of a solid initial bite. When trained correctly a dog bred for true working capability and not a Sport can more than excel and not have grip problems. Although most sport clubs tend to throw a sleeve and train a dog to work predominantly in prey, we do not. As mentioned in Der Schutzhund it is important to train in all factions of protection, I for one do not like a dog that comes into a blind and barks at a sleeve, I prefer the dog to look into the helpers eyes and say bring it on bitch, this is not behavior that I have seen in many NVBK lines. I would have to say the ones that I have seen tend to be more prey driven, this is a trait that the Sport of Schutzhund more of less requires for a dog to excel in the sport. There is nothing wrong with that, but I prefer a hard dog with true aggression, if a sport wants to penalize me for a trait that I feel is invaluable then that is fine. On another note, every helper that has ever worked one of my dogs, from Michael Ellis to Dean Calderon and many in between always come up and say that is one hard dog. I will quote Dean Calderon when working a female from my first litter he said that "I have never seen a dog with so much true aggression that held on to a full grip." There is a possibility to achieve a dog with true aggression that holds onto a full grip, not only through correct training but also through strong genetics.
On the argument of NVBK dogs and NHSB dogs in Schutzhund championships, KNPV is the predominant sport in the Netherlands not IPO I think that this is a reason for Dutch dogs not competing in IPO Championships as often as NVBK. To flip the switch how many NVBK line Malinois excel in the hardest certification program in the World, KNPV? I know Phils argument will be that IPO is harder but the truth in the matter is it is not. There are more intense factions in KNPV and many more tests than there are in the SPORT of Schutzhund. Schutzhund is a fun and a competition filled SPORT, but it has become more of a Sport than a breed certification test. I have earned two Schutzhund three titles, one not as pretty as the other but I feel that I earned the scores that I received, if I didn't feel that way I would not accept them. My track may not have been great, but conditions were not either, she worked her ass off and finished the track hence why I passed, my ob routine was not perfect either but she finished every exercise, and my protection routine was pretty good, but she always heads right to the fine blind no matter what we have tried, hot blinds, e-collar, you name it we have tried it, Phil Hoelcher once had a dog that skipped the blinds he just sent him to the fine blind. I have not seen a perfect routine and no one on here can say that they have done one, so DUD eat S#!T we are not even sure if you train dogs, you probably just have a rule book handy and have watched a ton of videos of something that you wish you could attempt to do.
On another note if you intend to question a dogs grips the only way to find out how they are is to work the dog which I can assume Dud has never done. If you would like to work one of my dogs you are more than welcome to, give me a call I will possibly be heading to USA Reg
For example I would say that a dog with true aggression and fight are not particularly appealing for sport people because they expect a dog to just latch on and be driven nicely in the pocket. When aggression is introduced and you have no idea how to deal with it in a sport arena you get a dog with chewy bites that shakes itself off of a solid initial bite. When trained correctly a dog bred for true working capability and not a Sport can more than excel and not have grip problems. Although most sport clubs tend to throw a sleeve and train a dog to work predominantly in prey, we do not. As mentioned in Der Schutzhund it is important to train in all factions of protection, I for one do not like a dog that comes into a blind and barks at a sleeve, I prefer the dog to look into the helpers eyes and say bring it on bitch, this is not behavior that I have seen in many NVBK lines. I would have to say the ones that I have seen tend to be more prey driven, this is a trait that the Sport of Schutzhund more of less requires for a dog to excel in the sport. There is nothing wrong with that, but I prefer a hard dog with true aggression, if a sport wants to penalize me for a trait that I feel is invaluable then that is fine. On another note, every helper that has ever worked one of my dogs, from Michael Ellis to Dean Calderon and many in between always come up and say that is one hard dog. I will quote Dean Calderon when working a female from my first litter he said that "I have never seen a dog with so much true aggression that held on to a full grip." There is a possibility to achieve a dog with true aggression that holds onto a full grip, not only through correct training but also through strong genetics.
On the argument of NVBK dogs and NHSB dogs in Schutzhund championships, KNPV is the predominant sport in the Netherlands not IPO I think that this is a reason for Dutch dogs not competing in IPO Championships as often as NVBK. To flip the switch how many NVBK line Malinois excel in the hardest certification program in the World, KNPV? I know Phils argument will be that IPO is harder but the truth in the matter is it is not. There are more intense factions in KNPV and many more tests than there are in the SPORT of Schutzhund. Schutzhund is a fun and a competition filled SPORT, but it has become more of a Sport than a breed certification test. I have earned two Schutzhund three titles, one not as pretty as the other but I feel that I earned the scores that I received, if I didn't feel that way I would not accept them. My track may not have been great, but conditions were not either, she worked her ass off and finished the track hence why I passed, my ob routine was not perfect either but she finished every exercise, and my protection routine was pretty good, but she always heads right to the fine blind no matter what we have tried, hot blinds, e-collar, you name it we have tried it, Phil Hoelcher once had a dog that skipped the blinds he just sent him to the fine blind. I have not seen a perfect routine and no one on here can say that they have done one, so DUD eat S#!T we are not even sure if you train dogs, you probably just have a rule book handy and have watched a ton of videos of something that you wish you could attempt to do.
On another note if you intend to question a dogs grips the only way to find out how they are is to work the dog which I can assume Dud has never done. If you would like to work one of my dogs you are more than welcome to, give me a call I will possibly be heading to USA Reg
by vincentpmchugh on 21 July 2011 - 03:07
USA Regionals, which my father in Law has won with a Dutch line Mal 4 different times, in Chicago September 2-4, I live in Denver, feel free to give me a call, 720-951-1458 my name is
Vincent Mc Hugh, nothing to hide here.
Chicago is Dud's back yard isn't it?
Vincent Mc Hugh, nothing to hide here.
Chicago is Dud's back yard isn't it?
by Duderino on 21 July 2011 - 04:07
Actually, I have probably trained more police K9's than you have trained dogs. However, I can count the K9 handlers on one hand that I feel are genuinely good dog people and worth giving the time of day to as handlers. In fact, I did K9 work and PP work for more than 10 years before I ever got into the sports. I competed in street dog shows and beat the Pit Bull boys at their own game, WITH MY SPORT DOG. It's not just how you train the dog for the sport, but how you train the sport for the dog. I still say training a dog to score 96 points or better in all 3 phases at a championship event under the sharp pencils of 3 different judges on a strange field that you only had 5 minutes to practice on is pretty damned difficult.
by Duderino on 21 July 2011 - 04:07
.....and no, Chicago is not my back yard and you can stop calling me Phil.
by vincentpmchugh on 21 July 2011 - 06:07
Well if your name isn't Phil then what is it?
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