Choking a dog to get the ball back

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by mfh27 on 25 January 2011 - 03:01

My Shepherd was taught that Aus was associated with a continuation of the game. Aus was never used at the end of the game when the toy or sleave was taken away. And he outs very nicely because of it, with no conflict.

However, when the helper drops the sleave, he knows the game could be over, and does not want to give his beloved sleave up. So I will grab his prong, hold him up, and say nothing until he decides to let go.

by Slamdunc on 25 January 2011 - 03:01

Beetree,
It is more of a lift off than choking a puppy to let the toy go. You simply lift up on the flat collar and the dog will spit out what is in it's mouth. I'm sure you have done this with a pup or young dog to get it drop something.

Ace,
There are lots of ways to get a pup to drop something. I pretty much always have two toys, even with my adult dogs. I have several techniques to get a dog to drop something, it depends on the situation. I can pick a dog up and spin in a circle, that is one way. I can lift the dog by the collar, I can blow quickly into the dog's ear and take the toy. I can flank the dog if necessary while lifting. It all depends on the dog and the task being preformed the value of the item and the amount of drive the dog has.

I prefer the substitution method and use two toys or even two sleeves. I start early with the two toy game and the dog learns that "out" means drop what ever is in your mouth. If the dog understands that concept it is easy to teach the dog to out a sleeve, suit or person.

Jim

by Don Corleone on 25 January 2011 - 04:01

"Does Wayne Brady have to choke a bitch?"

by VKGSDs on 25 January 2011 - 13:01

I lift my dogs off things but don't "choke" them. If I had to choke them, then there needs to be a better solution. Usually I have 2-3 balls in my pockets and just make another one "come alive", or I brace the toy "dead" against my thigh until the dog let's go. As for bitework, my dog doing bitework is not object oriented, so as soon as we stop moving he drops the sleeve. He is not one to gnaw at it and thrash around when I tell him to out.

by GSDdrive1 on 25 January 2011 - 17:01

Training the out is about building trust. The dog has to learn that outing the ball does not mean giving up the ball. In the beginning he has to get it back right away. As mentioned earlier using two toys works well at this stage. Once the dog is readily dropping the first toy you can hide the second toy in a pocket and when he drops the first toy kick or make it active somehow allowing him to get it again immediately. Eventually you work up to be able to have the dog drop the toy on command and no longer need two toys.
A correction is warranted once the dog knows what is expected and doesn't out the object. However, choking the dog to get the ball during the foundation training will only build conflict and continued problems in the future.

by Jeff Oehlsen on 26 January 2011 - 07:01

Most people that lift up are not choking the dog out to get a ball back, but building drive for the ball. They do not say out or anything like that. If your dog is high drive, you probably do not need to do this, but I know people that do not teach the out, as they will sell the dog as a green dog.

People like to see a green dog that doesn't want to give a toy up for some reason. : ) You give them what they want to see. I personally hate doing that, as I always lose. I get bit, or start laughing. It is hard to deal with when you teach an out right away in sport work. : )

by Ace952 on 26 January 2011 - 16:01

Jeff....I was taught that is the exact reasoning as well.

Again depends on what you are doing with the dog as well. (what you are training it for)

by windwalker18 on 27 January 2011 - 04:01

Remember also that the WAY that outing is taught depends on large part on the drive of the dog. One of my gang would keep trying to get a ball or toy til he dropped dead... yet he'll let it go on the command of "leave it" . My other dogs love to play ball but if I were to be hard in taking the ball from them would loose some of their drive to posess it at all costs. Like ~~most~~ all kinds of training it depends on the dog!

by VonIsengard on 27 January 2011 - 05:01

Can't say I've ever choked a dog off anything. The K9s we train here out as well.

Two ball, two toy works great, I've also had great success teaching a dog that the toy goes dead and only because fun and "live" again after the out. A common handler mistake is to keep pressure on the item while trying to get the dog to release. This keeps the game in motion, even if just a little- it's plenty enough for a high drive dog.

I am of a rather unpopular (I think) mindset that teaching a young dog to correctly out a toy is not the drive-breaking, horrifying taboo that some think it is. I think if teaching an out is going to wreck your dog's grip and/or drive, maybe your dog didn't have that much of it in the first place...just my exceedingly humble opinion.

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