Any info, ref: pinch collars please - Page 3

Pharoah, that pinch collar you posted, www.allk-9.com/herm-sprenger-stainless-steel-prong-collar-nickel-snap-p-228.html is worthless.  The whole point of a pinch collar is to constrict quickly then release, hence the martingale built into them.  But this Sprenger collar is another terrible design by them.  All it will do is prod the dogs neck, there is no snap.

I wasted $55 on a Sprenger neck tech, stupidest design ever, clanky and loud and with little spikes that prod into the neck.  A regular, classic prong collar works the best.  The prongs are on an angle, there's a martingale, and the main thing to know, Lissa, is that it's used to snap and release.  The dog should never be pulling against it.  That is the mistake people make when they buy them on their own from the pet store and put them on.  The dog is still pulling, he's just pulling a bit less hard because it gets uncomfortable to pull hard.  Dogs should be trained to walk on a loose leash, and you would snap back when they get 1 step out of heel, then praise when they are heeling.  I do not believe in what some trainers do to let the dog hit the end of a line and correct themselves hard, but think it's best to teach heel by rewarding for the correct position and snapping back repeating "heel" when they break position.  Why would you want to trick your dog and wring his neck out on a line, so he is walking on eggshells and has no idea whats going on, that is how Kohler-style trainers will do it, and I don't like it.  Start by walking slow and teaching the basic steps, show where the reward is and praise a lot.

Louise Ball, you have a judgemental attitude.  It's good you got a BH, but that means very, very little to me that your dog can perform a basic exercise on a field for 7 minutes, as if that BH gives you the right to judge other peoples methods- you don't know this dogs temperament, mabye it's not as easy to train as your GSDs.  Trainers like me do not use training collars because they are lazy as you imply, they use them because they work, and because not every dog is going to heel reliably without any correction, not in the real world.  I would like to see you work your dogs obedience in a crowded dog park and see that it truly flawless, I'm sure it's not.

Doberdoodle,

The pinch collar I posted is NOT FOR TRAINING!  You would need a martingale for that for the very reasons you explained.

I use it for specific circumstances, like going to the coffee house where dogs are allowed.  Or, going into big box stores like Home Depot or OSH or Bed Bath and Beyond etc.  Sometimes I take him into the bank.

I walk Pharaoh on a loose leash and I use voice commands and hand signals.

When we are in very exciting environments and a wild Chihuahua walks by, he might occasionally decide the extreme pleasure is worth it.

We were at Home Depot yesterday and he was, as usual, a perfect gentleman.  There were lots of people giving him attention and other dogs.  When we got to the check out, I was pushing one cart and pulling another.  He was perfectly well behaved and lay down at the cash register without asking.

At the front door at home, he is a gentlemen with people he knows and jumps up/rears up to examine strangers.  I have tried countless methods since he was a puppy to take control of this behavior.  All the methods work for a while and he figures out how to get around it.

When I used the method of ordering him on a down if he jumped up.  That worked for a while.  One day he decided to jump up as he pleased and put himself on a down immediately.

When the doorbell rings and it is a stranger, I put on the pinch collar and then tie him to the coffee table leg for a while.  Then, he can be a gentlman with the new person and mingle freely.


With the pinch, he just doesn't try.  It is not a matter of training, he knows.

I used to be pretty puffed up about my training abilities.  My previous GSDs were described as perfectly behaved.  I took them everywhere.  I thought it was because I was so good.  I had little sympathy for owners of poorly behaved dogs.  Then, I brought home Pharaoh.  It is a humbling experience.

Michele

You posted the collar that works out for your dog, and I wanted to add my opinion on that style of pinch collar, I think it's worthless as a good training collar because it prods but doesn't snap, and that it wouldn't be a good model for the OP's dog.  I don't think a regular pinch is difficult to get on or off.  I can see how it would work on a dog that is already trained like yours.

You can take dogs into Home Depot?  I wish we had that here.  Or is he a service animal?  I have never seen any store, other than specifically pet shops, to allow a dog in the store.  I imagine pets in any of those stores could cause damage to products.  The Menards here has a "no pets allowed" sign, insurance risk I suppose.  I wish there was more places to socialize dogs.

FWIW, that study is a myth.
It doesn't exist, never did.

Good luck trying to find it.

It started with one trainer who *invented* the study to further her own training techniques to her students, and spiraled out of control from there.

[now we will hear from multiple people who've "worked in a vet's office, and seen necropsies and can attest to the horrific damage from choke collars".  To which I respond- post a link to actual peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the argument by contrasting dogs trained in the same venue, in the manner, with the only varience being the collar used, and I'll delete my post and apologize profusely for my hubris.]

No tool is evil.
Collars don't leap up and attack dogs unprovoked.  Its the asshole at the two-legged end of the leash that makes any given collar dangerous.

With that said- I'd just as soon teach my dog how to walk on leash properly, rather than depend on a collar to make the dog behave.  Especially if I had a dog that was showing aggression towards other dogs and people on walks, as the OP *appears* to indicate [I could be reading that completely wrong.]

Prong collars have a tendancy to put drive into the dog, not take it out [that's why we like it so much in the bitework].  Also, there's the possibility that if your timing sucks, he's going to associate the correction with the other dog in a way you don't want- aka, the dog *caused* the correction, reinforcing his belief that other dogs are a bad, bad thing.

Tools are just tools.  Neither good, nor bad.
They are also not the end, they are a means to the end.  Slapping a prong collar on a dog and doing no training is giving yourself a false sense of confidence.  A false sense of confidence that might be shattered in a really nasty, unexpected way.

A collar isn't a replacement for training.

Lissa,

Based on what you have described the use of a prong collar is a good start. Chances are you will see dramatic changes after a couple of corrections. However, as most everyone has said it is important that the collar be fitted correctly. If you have to adjust it every couple of minutes it is too loose. Find someone knowledgable in the use of a prong collar to show you how to use it.

I have a couple of other suggestions. Your dog will likely correct himself the first time. If he takes off and you are holding the leash he is going to get a correction when he gets to the end of it. For future corrections try to make sure your dog is next to you when you give him the correction and correct him in an upward motion rather than pulling him backwards away from the other dog. The natural tendency is for the dog to resist a force, in this case pulling him backwards is going to make him want to go forward away from the resistance. A good strong correction upwards should not only stop him from moving forward but will likely put him into a sit. In addition, find something your dog really likes. If he has high food drive have some treats with you. Have a treat ready and once you correct him move such that he is facing you with his back to the other dog. Get him to focus on you and reward him. After a while he will learn that you are much more interesting and beneficial that another dog. He will eventually ignore the other dogs.

Good luck.