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by Myracle on 16 July 2010 - 03:07
So you're arguing the approach, then.
I can't say I disagree with you, although I've learned to "never say never" when it comes to most things in life.
I wasn't attempting to defend Frawley's advocacy of hanging dogs, merely clarifying that its a method that has been in use since long before Frawley was born. Many, many other vendors sell the same exact collar, and many trainers make them theirselves.
Does that lessen Frawley's liability for doing so as well? No. But are you disputing the method, or the fact that Frawley advocates it?
I just need to know which discussion we're having, "hanging dogs is evil" or "Leerburg is evil".
Since you said you wouldn't hang a dog to address its attempts to attack you, what would you do?
I can't say I disagree with you, although I've learned to "never say never" when it comes to most things in life.
I wasn't attempting to defend Frawley's advocacy of hanging dogs, merely clarifying that its a method that has been in use since long before Frawley was born. Many, many other vendors sell the same exact collar, and many trainers make them theirselves.
Does that lessen Frawley's liability for doing so as well? No. But are you disputing the method, or the fact that Frawley advocates it?
I just need to know which discussion we're having, "hanging dogs is evil" or "Leerburg is evil".
Since you said you wouldn't hang a dog to address its attempts to attack you, what would you do?
by tuffscuffleK9 on 16 July 2010 - 04:07
It is odd that this issue is being discussed.
A few months ago I posted on a thread that I had been to look at a 3yr old female GSD that turned agressive toward me while I was checking her out. I said that she was of medium size and I picked her up off of the ground by the collar until she calmed down.
I was bombarded by people saying I had done wrong and why did I even subject myself to that dog.
Now a dominant dog collar is being debated. Heck I had no choice but to make the flat collar she was wearing work, by the use of gravity, to do the same as a dominant dog collar. Isn't interesting, if I had used a slip collar (dominant dog collar) I would have been doing the right thing.
TUFF
A few months ago I posted on a thread that I had been to look at a 3yr old female GSD that turned agressive toward me while I was checking her out. I said that she was of medium size and I picked her up off of the ground by the collar until she calmed down.
I was bombarded by people saying I had done wrong and why did I even subject myself to that dog.
Now a dominant dog collar is being debated. Heck I had no choice but to make the flat collar she was wearing work, by the use of gravity, to do the same as a dominant dog collar. Isn't interesting, if I had used a slip collar (dominant dog collar) I would have been doing the right thing.
TUFF
by Doberdoodle on 16 July 2010 - 04:07
I think any professional should be using discretion in what advice, or in this case detailed instructions, they offer out to the general public, especially when it comes to something potentially dangerous.
Making an educated decision do use a certain method with a dog who is a client of yours and in front of you is different than giving it out online.
The thread was someone asking about the "dominant dog collar", and I think my post gave my opinion of it. What I would do is more involved and would depend on the dog and owner, begining with a complete history and assessment. But to just throw out a general idea, aggressive dogs should be muzzle trained and conditioned to wearing an open-mouth muzzle (conditioned means they wear it on a normal basis, without knowing it takes their bite away, they take it as another piece of equipment like a collar) then work would continue in steps. The way you can ruin muzzle-training is by only putting it on for negative experiences like vet, being dominated in any way, etc. At this point you can begin training to get the dog working for you without you being harmed. The physical strength it would take to choke-out a dog, I would guess it's a lot- judging by the strength and power, could a dog owner choke out a 100 pound Rott trying to attack you by lifting his leash up and not get maimed, I don't know, and I don't want to know. Once the dog is working for you, the process continues in a planned-out manner, going over triggers, specific problems, and so forth. The dog has to learn he can't hurt you, and that aggression no longer produces his desired results. The dog will learn that aggression is an ineffective way of responding.
It's not very common to come across the truly dominant-aggressive dog, less common than fear-based aggression. Most of these dogs have a long history of dominance, they already learned their mouth is used to get their desired results and they know people are scared and will back away, that builds up to a dangerous dog. The dogs are not necessarily bad genetically, it could be as simple as a good tough dog paired with a passive owner who did no early obedience training and never imposed their will upon their dog (that phrase sounds harsh, but I mean anything as simple as 'getting a dog to do something they don't want to do', like even getting into the car). There are owners who never impose their will, the dog runs the whole household and makes decisions, and they do fine, but not with a dog predisposed to this temperament, (think a working lines GSD, Rott, Akita...) it gets progressively dangerous. I've worked with dogs so dominant-aggressive you just say their name and hear a deep, low growl. Something as simple as "down" on command may be a huge isssue for this type of dog.
We don't hang dogs, but we have had clients who went to other trainers who made aggression worse by beating, hanging, helicoptering, e-collar, anything you can think of someone out there has tried it on a dog, with varying levels of sucess. How do you judge sucess? You can abuse a dog to the point they give up and shut down, learned helplessness, is that sucess? Some of these dogs who take training unfairly will end up snapping on their handler later and being put down. Punishment is very reinforcing to the punisher- even if they see it work only once in a while, that reinforces the idea that it's working and they continue, because the dogs it doesn't work out with long-term they can say Well nothing would have worked with that dog anyway. Many dogs are more powerful than a man or woman, we may not even be able to physically control them or physically stop an attack- but the one advantage we have over dogs is our intelligence, so we should use our brains not just brute
Making an educated decision do use a certain method with a dog who is a client of yours and in front of you is different than giving it out online.
The thread was someone asking about the "dominant dog collar", and I think my post gave my opinion of it. What I would do is more involved and would depend on the dog and owner, begining with a complete history and assessment. But to just throw out a general idea, aggressive dogs should be muzzle trained and conditioned to wearing an open-mouth muzzle (conditioned means they wear it on a normal basis, without knowing it takes their bite away, they take it as another piece of equipment like a collar) then work would continue in steps. The way you can ruin muzzle-training is by only putting it on for negative experiences like vet, being dominated in any way, etc. At this point you can begin training to get the dog working for you without you being harmed. The physical strength it would take to choke-out a dog, I would guess it's a lot- judging by the strength and power, could a dog owner choke out a 100 pound Rott trying to attack you by lifting his leash up and not get maimed, I don't know, and I don't want to know. Once the dog is working for you, the process continues in a planned-out manner, going over triggers, specific problems, and so forth. The dog has to learn he can't hurt you, and that aggression no longer produces his desired results. The dog will learn that aggression is an ineffective way of responding.
It's not very common to come across the truly dominant-aggressive dog, less common than fear-based aggression. Most of these dogs have a long history of dominance, they already learned their mouth is used to get their desired results and they know people are scared and will back away, that builds up to a dangerous dog. The dogs are not necessarily bad genetically, it could be as simple as a good tough dog paired with a passive owner who did no early obedience training and never imposed their will upon their dog (that phrase sounds harsh, but I mean anything as simple as 'getting a dog to do something they don't want to do', like even getting into the car). There are owners who never impose their will, the dog runs the whole household and makes decisions, and they do fine, but not with a dog predisposed to this temperament, (think a working lines GSD, Rott, Akita...) it gets progressively dangerous. I've worked with dogs so dominant-aggressive you just say their name and hear a deep, low growl. Something as simple as "down" on command may be a huge isssue for this type of dog.
We don't hang dogs, but we have had clients who went to other trainers who made aggression worse by beating, hanging, helicoptering, e-collar, anything you can think of someone out there has tried it on a dog, with varying levels of sucess. How do you judge sucess? You can abuse a dog to the point they give up and shut down, learned helplessness, is that sucess? Some of these dogs who take training unfairly will end up snapping on their handler later and being put down. Punishment is very reinforcing to the punisher- even if they see it work only once in a while, that reinforces the idea that it's working and they continue, because the dogs it doesn't work out with long-term they can say Well nothing would have worked with that dog anyway. Many dogs are more powerful than a man or woman, we may not even be able to physically control them or physically stop an attack- but the one advantage we have over dogs is our intelligence, so we should use our brains not just brute
by Doberdoodle on 16 July 2010 - 04:07
... force to change a dogs behavior.
by Myracle on 16 July 2010 - 05:07
I think you bring very valid points to the table, and I agree with everything you posted.
Those seem like real, viable alternatives to hanging a dog.
Those seem like real, viable alternatives to hanging a dog.
by NoCurs on 16 July 2010 - 05:07
It's not very common to come across the truly dominant-aggressive dog, less common than fear-based aggression.
This is so true it makes you want to cry.
Everybody seems to want to think they have a "dominant dog" so they can go Cesar Milan on it and be a real Pack Leader...
Fact is, there are two types of dogs that are most often the type that people like Ed think are "dominant"...
a) Mentally unsound dogs that 50 years ago would have gotten a bullet in the head to get them off the street and out of the gene pool, instead of a trip to the therapist...
This is so true it makes you want to cry.
Everybody seems to want to think they have a "dominant dog" so they can go Cesar Milan on it and be a real Pack Leader...
Fact is, there are two types of dogs that are most often the type that people like Ed think are "dominant"...
a) Mentally unsound dogs that 50 years ago would have gotten a bullet in the head to get them off the street and out of the gene pool, instead of a trip to the therapist...
b) dogs so damaged by crappy training they just flip out. I've personally witnessed a soft, sweet rottie bitch go insane from e-collar tracking training by a very "big name exeprt" who was a judge/officer and seminar giver. The bitch literally went crazy from the stress and attacked her owner on the track and was euthanized...
I judge the TALENT of a trainer by how little force they must use to produce the desired behavior in an animal. That's talent. Hanging a dog is not.
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