price of puppies - Page 3

EKvonEarnhart, I am not angry at all. If you really want to find out why Mr. X is charging X amount of dollars for his products, who better to ask than Mr. X. So if you genuinely want to know, ask the seller. Have you explored that option? If your answer is yes, but to no avail, then ask others. If your answer is no, then I suggest you ask the seller first.

Rikah-Haus I have asked some breeder and you should hear some of the answers!!! "Oh cuase I can" So I did ask a question on the board. yeah maybe I should of searched it first but I think BOB -O understood what I was tring to get at VALUE! Quote " then ask others" I thought most of the people on this board was "breeders" and that is why I asked. Thank you BOB-O

Good post Bob-O. To me the value of any dog, puppy, young dog or adult is based on many factors: it's hip and (and at 9 months or older, elbow status) as determined by Xray, having normal lab tests for TLI, bleeding disorders, thyroid, normal barium swallow and normal gut xray, etc. Good temperament (fire in the eyes, the look of eagles), proper construction and proportions and size, good sex type, good coming and going, balanced and free and easy dynamic side gait, proper angles at both ends, proper croup, tail set, pasterns, head and neck, and good pigment. If these conditions are met (and it doesn't matter whether the breeder is big or small or competes or not) then to me this is a valuable dog worthy of a substantial price, and can be substantially higher if the dog is older up to 2 years old, (better to buy at 9 months or older to be able to assess the elbows realistically). When you buy such a dog that is titled in show and or sch, that raises the value. If the dog comes from producing lines with pedigree depth for great hip, elbow, temperament, and health then the value is even greater. Many buyers underestimate the actual cost and time a dedicated, ethical and responsible breeder (who doesn't breed to many litters per year) has invested in such a valuable dog. Thus such good dogs deserve a suitable price based on these factors. Let's face it such good dogs are still a statistical minority and are worth a substantial price. There are some breedrs stateside and in Canada that are using OFA and being very careful about hips and elbows and the above mentioned factors. These breeders are worth their weight in gold and produce dogs that have normal health, normal GSD temperament (by Capt Von Stephanitz's criteria). If one becomes interested in buying a dog, my view is that he or she should be willing to pay for the tests I mentioned above that were not done if given a contractual first refusal to buy the dog at an agreed upon price.

THANK YOU PRESTON that is it right there "what do you put in to the price of the dog". after doing all the testing and titling and so fourth. then I could see paying top dollar but most breeders including my self do not do all the test. Reason being I was in a different world of shepherds (Americans) until I got in to working lines and found forums like this one. Now everything I do is to better the shepherds. We are still learning and improving every day.

It is very difficult and very costly for any GSD breeder to do his/her job correctly. It takes an immense amount of money, time, work and devotion to the puppies in order for them to be well bred, well raised and well socialized. That is why it is only fair that GSDs of good health with great temperament and joints and proper construction must cost a substantial amount of money. It's the old adage pay now or pay later. A healthy GSD purchase ends up saving a lot in future vet bills and a great deal of heartache. I believe that the buyer needs to carefully assess any breeder by seeing their dogs and talking to them and to others who have done business with them. Once the buyer determines that the breeder is an honorable and ethical breeder, then the buyer needs to respect this ethical breeder and has a responsibility to put forth some effort and some earnest money to get any additional testing he/she wants done before completing the purchase. If I want a dog bad enough but am committed to certain standards for health, I must be willing to pay for the additonal lab work and tests I need to be done. I am willing to this if I want the dog dad enough and have obtained a contractual first right of refusal to complete the purchase at a pre-agreed price. Any ethical breeder will be willing to take the dog or puppy in to his/her vet for all these additional x-rays and tests if the buyer is willing to front the money. I once bought a bitch from Julie Martinez at Mittelwest and she readily agreed to do this and then did so when I sent her the money to cover the vet costs for these tests. I knew that if I backed out of the sale, I would not expect the testing costs to be refunded by her to me. Her vet sent all the hip and elbow x-rays and lab test results to my vet for my vet's opinion. Julie never tried to hide anything and wanted me to be happy with any GSD I purchased from her. Everything worked out great and I was a satisfied buyer of a very healthy bitch that later certified for OFA hips and elbows. Most breeders just can't afford to do all the testing I and many folks now want. The buyer must put forth some effort to work with the breeder, in my opinion. Good breeders need to be valued, respected and appreciated when they help buyers get the correct to standard, healthy GSDs they want.

Hello Preston I am not a wealthy person nor do I want to be suppling GSd to everyone in the world. I have made some wrong chioces in the past by not knowing. I vowed that when my husband bought these two dogs for me I would do it right. I have learned so much thoughout the two years so far. I love that there are these forums and people like you on them to help people like me. So a personal THANK YOU.

EkvonEarnhardt, you are welcome. Unfortunately most of what I have learned was by mistakes and problems. It's always good, if newbies can learn from others who have taken the long road to success. My best advice is to study and memorize the FCI standard and get hold of a video on the GSD made by the most esteemed international judge and breeder, Mr. Carbajal (spelling may be wrong-this man is a complete depository of knowledge of what is correct in the structure and movement of the GSD). Perhaps the AKC sells this video (or contact him at his kennel web site). This video is excellent and comes in two parts, illustrating correct structure and movement. Or study Wynthea Strickland's most excellent classic book. I think its still available. This book is priceless for it's skeletal depictions of correct and incorrect angulations and bone lengths with proper and improper movement. Or visit the very nice www.estahaus.com website. Bill Leonard has some short video their of his excellent structured W. German imports that have exceptional movement. I recommend that you become aware of all the medical and genetic isues and how to best avoid buying a puppy or dog with them. And I suggest you understand and recognize the limitations of even the best most reputable and ethical breeders. These folks in general try to do their best to breed good looking, healthy GSDs with good temperament, but this is a very difficult task even for the most experienced and knowledgeable. The buyer of a puppy or dog can take their own initiative to work with the breeder to get the additional lab tests and x-rays one wants without placing an undue financial burden on the breeder, who often already has invested many thousands in their kennel and foundation dogs and many hundreds in any specific litter. It's hard to buy a healthy, good looking, good acting GSD at any price, but the knowledgeable buyer can increase the odds geometrically by understanding the system and saving their money until they have something to work with. Otherwise in some cases one is best just going to the best breeder they can find, one who uses dogs for breeding with good clean joints and good temperaments, and then "roll the dice" on a young puppy. If it works out fine. Ff not one may have to later euthanize the dog in the worst case scenario later, which causes hearache and great loss after one has become attached. These are my opinions based on about 40 years of learning about the GSD breed.

Many good comments. I have found that all things considered a small hobby breeder can spend between $2000 and $4000 per pup depending on a number of factors. (supposing full USA/SV participation and taking your bitch to the stud of choice, not thrift or convenience) Bear in mind the breeder of whom you spoke is providing a service. If you wish to pay retail prices there are a handfull of people in the US who can breed or broker a dog for you. You must know what you want. Some negotiation is sometimes possible, and remember that VA does not mean the same thing everywhere. Many dogs that receive VA's in USA are middle V's in Germany, and other countries have lower standards. Good luck

Preston, thank you for the Estauhas web site URL. The movement videos are excellent. Anyone wanting to study GSD movement should take a look. You will need high speed internet service.

I paid $2500 for my puppy from V, Sch 3, parents (grandfather was VA1). I had pick of the litter and picked the one we all thought was best. Unfortunately, this puppy is cryptorchid (so he will never be bred, shown, titled), has one floppy ear, is shy and slightly insecure, and hates kids. He's still pretty young. We had a good relationship with the breeder and traveled there often to see the pups. That said, he's a great companion dog and we love him to death. Bottom line is, no matter how much you pay, you still aren't guaranteed a thing! I'll certainly know better next time.