What's the right follow up on my part? - Page 3

Its really sad that the thousands of people who do not have such horror stories won't take as much time about their good experiences as the repeated efforts by those with the odd bad experience. But there was a thread recently about sellers people have not gotten screwe by, which received very little attention BTW. OldNewGuyMC, To1. My appologies for my assumption, just see that request way too often. To2. So we agree that you bought a cheap dog and knew it. [...quality pup for $1000 to $1500 plus shipping.] Your acceptable price of a puppy plus shipping, plus expenses and time for raising a pup for an extra year and a half does still not equal the price you paid for a supposedly quality young adult. Cheapest shipping price within the US in a 500 crate is $330US with Continental, plus cost of crate. That leaves about $1400 for the dog. With Delta you may be left with a much lower price for that dog. Add those extra charges you mentioned, then the price for the dog is getting even lower still. To3. [The breeder advertised this as a special situuation] Did not see the ad, but anything advertised like that looks like a bargain to me. That is what I referring to in a previous message. I have seen too many of them. Special situation, special price... you got what you paid for. Sorry, but it is what it is. If he was a quality dog then he would have cost more than a pup. Logical? I think so. Especially for a dog person that has been around the block like you have. The fact that this was a special situation should have raised the question as to why and what exactly makes it so special. OK, some good dogs get sold for lower prices, but they are a rare find. We all know that. And they rarely come from special situations. You took the chance... To4. Of course things would have been very different had you bought a dog from us. For starters, we do not have special situations and the odd occasion that we have a dog that could possibly be classified as such then as much as possible is disclosed. We do that anyways, often to the point where I get asked why I make the dog look so bad. Just trying to be realistic there too. Does not mean that a dog is bad if I don't paint it in gold and rave about it. For example, a breeder friend has a good dog available that he was going to seriously compete with this year. Unfotunately the dog got injured just at the onset of the season and tore a ligament. He is a pretty good dog, before his injury suitable for higher level sport, rather civil and not suitable for beginners, used to family and children, housebroken, with an excellent foundation pedigree. In the right hands this dog is great. But we have already turned down many inquiries because I do not want to hear any horror stories about someone who got in over their head with him. He also cannot do SchH any longer, so a potential buyer is told that in very clear terms. He had an artificial tendon installed, the cast is off, he is moving fine. Certain movements could cause the tendon to tear again though, which is a risk that should not be taken. With people inquiring I go even into more detail. We get the bargain hunters all the time who think they can pick up a dog like that for little money and either re-sell him, or chance it at SchH and not care if the dog might break down because of that. We care. The dog is not for free. Priced just high enough to keep the bargain hunters away, and low enough that someone who can appreciate a dog like him is willing to pay what is being asked. Maybe use him as stud, certainly will make a good home protector. There is also no rush to place him. But any person buying this dog will know to the fullest extent what they are buying. That is how it should be.

I am not excusing how things went with your transaction, just trying to put them in a more realistic light. I also did not say anywhere that you were stupid. Trust is always part of any purchase we make, dog or no dog. You take that chance every time, even when you buy eggs at the store. Some may be cracked when you get home. But more often than no expectations are very high and that is when things can get difficult. A few scabs on cheek, head and ears, and being a bit on the skinny side are not the end of the world. They are minor problems, which do not make that dog a bad dog. You also like him, and apart than some superficial stuff and minor details about extra charges you seem to be otherwise happy with that dog. Your own words: "he is a good dog." Not every kennel can put dogs indoors away from flies. And even indoors a dog might not get away from them, nor is it practical to keep a dog indoors at all times even if you could take them inside. Yes, the scabs should have been disclosed. And treated before shipping and a battle plan sent along on how to keep going. The weight issue is a joke. Yes, the seller should have known better. Weight is an obsession with US buyers. In Germany people never ask the weight, just if the dog is within standard, that's all. As to additional cost, again all that needs to be explained and listed before. A buyer should never assume that things like trip to the vet and airport are free though, unfortunately often they do. Are those justified charges? Absolutely. People who sell dogs have lives too, that do not consist solely of sitting in a vets waiting room or the car enroute to an airport, and everyone has high gas bills these days. Paperwork could have been sent with the dog at the time of shipping. Now a few more details surface - you bought an inexpensive dog that was advertised as a 'special situation', which should have raised some eyebrows right then and there. You come here for some support and sympathy for your situation, which turns out to be the bargain that wasn't. I am sorry that I cannot quite delve into that to your satisfaction. That does not mean I am putting you down, or think you are stupid or undeserving. Nor does it mean that I agree or disagree with you. Or that I agree or disagree with the seller. And yes I am sorry for yet another sad story. Since they prevail, especially on this board, it leaves a very bad flavour. Getting what you asked for and what you deserve are two different things. Everyone deserves the best! No one deserves anything bad! The reality here is that we have a sale that did not fulfill the expectations, which should have been low to begin with when someone considers an inexpensive dog out of a special situation. You took a chance. It did not work out 100%. From what you are saying though you seem to be hmmm about 80% ok. Maybe not the best performance. I am well aware of that. But not a total loss either. Sounds like you got a nice dog that should be a good fit for relatively little money. In a short time, the scabs will have healed. If you keep communication up with the seller, paperwork should follow. Special situation resolved. Very few transactions really go bad. If you feel there is too much of that on this board like I do, go into the testimonial pages of some of the better known GSD breeders. Many websites are full of happy pix and nice stories that show very well that most people, when they stick with a good breeder or seller, also get a good and healthy and happy dog.

Sounds to me like this breeder never even SAW this dog before she shipped him. Didn't notice bite marks and ear scabs? Didn't notice 30lb weight difference? Give me a break! Can we say "Puppy Farm?"

I'm not sure if this person is malicious or really dumb, neglectful and uncaring-the truth probably lies somewhere in between. I was not looking for a large dog. I was not looking for a top show prospect, I was not looking for a dog that would win the top sporting championships. I think I'm probably closer to the average GSD enthusiast who likes working GSD's who won't be ashamed in the show ring. Over the years we've tried a little bit of everything with some very fine GSD's. Once you've owned a high quality GSD you are not going to be happy with a dog with a roach back or some other obvious defect UNLESS you are getting such a dog as a rescue dog to pay back the breed for all they have given you. As I said we've been doing this for over 35 years. I say all of this to say: if it can happen to us, can it happen to you? Here are 6 thoughts I would share for you to consider to avoid a bad experience: 1. Don't let your guard down. When the flags start to go up you are not being paranoid. Trust your instincts. We didn't. 2. Ask for references and actually check them! Especially if they are willing to give you their Vet as a reference. We didn't do that this time. 3.If you are getting pictures, ask how old those pictures are. Get the answer in writing. We didn't. 4. Get the bill itemized before the final payment. Don't trustingly pay an "out the door" price and wait for an itemization later. We took the word of the breeder that what we were paying for was what we had agreed to. 5. Always work with a contract, again, don't trust. We trusted. 6. If at all possible get a relative to help you make the decision. Someone who is not likely to let any emotions into the process, but will always think with a clear head. It's too easy for you to get emotionally attached to the transaction especially if an outside issue is involved such as still grieving a loving companion. The rest you know. Thank you to everybody for responding. Yes, even you too D. H. :)

D.H. You seem to be stuck on the thought that we were looking for a bargain. Looking for a top prospect for low money. Read my posts again. You are way off. As to your "to No. 2" or "to No. 3" etc. again read my posts. For your edification the crate charge was $250 for a crate that sells everywhere for $179.95. The shipping charge was $387 on an Air Cond. Continental which we insisted on. But that was based on 76 lbs. The breeder charged for a 102 lb. dog. We did get the difference back after I complained. We agreed to pay for the dog, the crate and the shipping. AFTER we get the dog and I notice the shipping charges I ask where did the rest of the money go? THEN I'm told it went for gas to the airport the vet visit and the very costly crate. Since NORMAL practice is to build the breeder's costs into the price of the dog, OR AT THE VERY LEAST tell the buyers that you will be adding those charges, it does not sit well with a buyer to be surprised by extras that were not previously discussed. It doesn't matter how many words you put into your posts there is no way you can excuse these practices! And when you get a dog that the hip bones are sticking up or you can visibly count every rib, you are not shocked because you were expecting a "the big Shepherd you wanted". Or because your Vet is only used to seeing overfed dogs is the reason he says "boy this guy is skinny". (What do you know about my Vet and what he's used to seeing?) If you love the breed what you feel is anger! And if you as a breeder cannot keep your dogs from getting constantly bitten by insects to the point where they are scabby, you should not be a breeder. You should buy your dogs like we always have because we felt we didn't have the perfect environment in which to breed and care for those dogs properly! I know this dog is going to be okay. He's already responding to medicines for his ears and the scabs on his cheek. He lost 2 lbs during all of this (he was 74 lbs at the Vet's visit THE DAY AFTER WE GOT HIM)but he's regained that and probably 2 or 3 more already. I'm not sitting here wringing my hands as to what's going to become of this dog! I'll send you a picture in 2 0r 3 months after we straighten him out. Again read my posts more carefully. But what I hear you saying is: "all's well that ends well" Wrong. This breeder needs to be called to account and your excusing this behavior and trying to put at least part of the blame on the buyer is as misguided as the part of our society that blames our country for terrorist actions instead of the terrorists. Are you a young misguided person or an old misguided person. I want to know in case we continue this debate. I did not come to the board for sympathy or for advice on what to do with the dog. I clearly stated that I wanted to get opinions on what to do about the BREEDER. But of course if you can't get past on what I may have done wrong all you are doing is excusing the breeder's behavior. But as I used to tell some of my supervisors who would come to me complaining about an employee giving them lip. "If they didn't care they would not give you lip." So, thanks for caring.

Are you actually asking for opinions or just want others to say what you think they should say? I have never excused the seller or her actions or condoned them, so don't put words into my mouth. And any reference to terrorists in any which way only displays your current state of mind, not mine. Here is a straight up opinion: If that dog arrived in such horrid condition, this board is the wrong approach, especially 2 weeks after the fact. Hire a lawyer, get the local animal control involved, take this person to court. You do not need this board to hear this or do any of this. This dog could not have been in that bad a shape or else you would have taken these steps already. Immideately upon the dogs arrival, including posting here. But 2 weeks after you come here with hardly enough gusto that would warrant a really terrible condition being present. And these were your words: " top money as good prospects". $1200 is hardly top money. You say yourself that you have found pups from $1000 to $1500, yet you do not question why a young adult a year and a half later would not cost more. Let me tell you another opinion: Most of these issues that are brought here are about money... If it had been about just the dog from day one, you would have come here right away and written with outrage and worry about the dog. But that did not happen, did it? So forgive me for having seen it all and not quite putting so much faith in most of what I read here. Yes to never letting your guard down. Yes to asking and checking references. Yes to getting pix and asking dates, but be respectful of peoples time and don't ask for new ones of the others are only a few weeks old. No to an itemized bill if you pay a package price. Yes to an itemized bill if you pay for things individually. Yes to asking for this in advance if you want it itemized, don't complain later. Contracts mean nothing if they will not be reinforced. How many people actually do go to court in another state for about a Grand. Absolute YES to asking other peoples opinions if you feel you need them. If you do not want others opinions at least sleep over things. If the dog is gone there will always be another. If you feel you cannot wait, then yes, you are looking for that bargain.

500 crates cost anywhere from $75 to $375 online in the US, shops also have different prices. The shipping may well have been quoted to her differently because the weight of the dog plus the weight of the crate together make up the total shipping cost. Not just the weight of the dog, or did you dog fly tied to the cargo hold with a leash? Continental has a price break at 100 lbs. If the dog was 76lbs at the time of the health cert, plus weight of a 500 crate then shipping would have been in excess of 100lbs. The difference is about $60. Hardly an amount to loose sleep over if someone at the other end is already dealing with all the hassle of getting a dog ready for shipment for you. A little more appreciation here for everyone who does that and is taken for granted. If the seller sweet talked the cargo personell into charging less at check-in then that should be hers to keep. You would have always been charged that amount regardless. 74lbs of dog after arrival at your end plus 30lbs for the crate would still be above 100lbs any which way you turn it. But none of it matters. For the most part we are talking about the same thing. Just sing a different tune. Except that I am not so sure what your problem is exactly other than seeming to need to hear that yes and letting steam off about the rest. Forgive me for not just keeping the "blame" with the seller. You took an active role in this, are a capable adult. Things went wrong. You are upset. The seller is not helping. The dog is not bad. Now you are nitpicking things apart and beat around the Bush about what to say exactly and who can be blamed. Don't blame me if you have a beef with some other lady. If you were indeed that experienced in dogs and life this would not have happened, you would know what to do and how to act/react. People come to this board all the time with horror stories, most of which could have been prevented by just some common sense. And afterwards not made any worse with some common courtesy and some patience. I care quite a bit more than may be apparent at the first shallow look. Thanks for noticing.

DH I agree with you on the thread about "kennels you have not been screwed by. I was surprised to see very little respond. But again We have to look at it from all views. At one point or another a breeder is going to piss someone off no matter what they do or say. And some times it goes aways and sometimes it doesn't and with the web boards all around most are getting only HALF the story to begin with. So who knows for sure any more. I think everyone has a horror story or two to tell (I know I have my from either side as a buyer and a seller/breeder). With each one you learn a little bit more. Some learn quicker and some slower but you learn and if you can share the experiences and knowledge that comes from each mistake then at least one person will not make that mistake. (hopefully). I was not impling that dogs should be indoors. Mine are not and when the flies start to become a problem then they must be treated (little vicks rub on the ears does the trick everytime) but to allow this dog to be sold and shipped "is as" is wrong. I think anyone on this board would upset if they purchased a dog (reguardless if is 1000.-15,000) and it looked like that. Surely you can not tell me you would not be upset if your new dog came in looking like this. It is the owners/breeders respondiblity to let the new owner be aware of what is going on with the dog. It is also the owners/breeders respondiblity in enclose all the cost of this dog... not add it in at the last minute cause she do not want to give back his money. Most kennels/breeder include charges in the shipping (if shipping is 225 then you will see 325 for shipping common partice in the US this covers everything else). Sorry but this breeder IN MY OPINION did him wrong. Did he make mistakes YES who hasn't but that does not give the breeder the right to ship out a underwieght, scabbed up, fly biten dog. SHAME ON THE BREEDER!!! NEWOLDGUYMC you are from the OLD school ways were a hand shake and your "WORD" meant trust and pride. Now days you have to have everything in writing/ and signed in blood for it to mean anything. Sad but true.

You state: Continental has a price break at 100 lbs. If the dog was 76lbs at the time of the health cert, plus weight of a 500 crate then shipping would have been in excess of 100lbs. The difference is about $60. Response: You know so much without knowing anything. The price quoted by the breeder was for a dog that weighed 102 lbs plus the weight of the crate. The actual charges were for a dog that weighed 76 lbs plus crate. ($387) You state: Hardly an amount to loose sleep over if someone at the other end is already dealing with all the hassle of getting a dog ready for shipment for you. A little more appreciation here for everyone who does that and is taken for granted. Response: Oh you poor breeder you! It's to the point where you can't even overcharge for shipping without people complaining! You state: If the seller sweet talked the cargo personell into charging less at check-in then that should be hers to keep. You would have always been charged that amount regardless. 74lbs of dog after arrival at your end plus 30lbs for the crate would still be above 100lbs any which way you turn it. Response: Even the SELLER admitted that she had made a mistake by charging for shipping for a 102 lb dog! (and then tried to shift blame to the Vet for confusing her) But, you are still concocting stories to excuse her! Incredible! You state: But none of it matters. For the most part we are talking about the same thing. Just sing a different tune. Except that I am not so sure what your problem is exactly other than seeming to need to hear that yes and letting steam off about the rest. Forgive me for not just keeping the "blame" with the seller. You took an active role in this, are a capable adult. Things went wrong. You are upset. The seller is not helping. The dog is not bad. Now you are nitpicking things apart and beat around the Bush about what to say exactly and who can be blamed. Don't blame me if you have a beef with some other lady. Response: That sums up well your attitude towards buyers. The buyer is at fault for receiving a dog in poor shape and is now "nitpicking" You state: If you were indeed that experienced in dogs and life this would not have happened, you would know what to do and how to act/react. Response: Yep! You caught me. I'm also lying about my experiences and life! BTW I'm sure you are not interested but I've received several e-mails that have identified this breeder by name and told horror tales of experiences with her. Here is just one example: "Anyway, I met a friend on another list who purchased her female from Melissa. Her female has severe hip dysplasia. She's a wonderful owner and is doing everything she can for her dog and has taken her to countless vets. That same friend was the one who gave me all the dirt on the dogs xxxxxx was breeding and recycling. I believe some of the so-called "titles"may have been fabricated to some degree if memory serves me correctly" But I'm probably lying about that too, right D.H.?? This will be my last message on this subject to you D.H., as you are not worth my time and you have nothing to contribute. So feel free to keep attackin me. I think people have seen enough of your true nature to judge for themselves. If anything positive has come from this exchange it may be that. Perhaps people will know what they are dealing with if they are thinking of buyin a dog from you. Try to remember to take your medication.

Apparently the server dropped the first half of my message so I'll try again. D.H. You State: Are you actually asking for opinions or just want others to say what you think they should say? I have never excused the seller or her actions or condoned them, so don't put words into my mouth. Response: I asked for opinions on what to do about a bad breeder, not for your tirade against buyers. You really have to learn to read more carefully. You state: And any reference to terrorists in any which way only displays your current state of mind, not mine. That doesn't even make any sense. You state: Here is a straight up opinion: If that dog arrived in such horrid condition, this board is the wrong approach, especially 2 weeks after the fact. Response: I see, this board is the wrong place to ask for opinions. And because I waited 2 weeks to write in I must be lying. You state: Hire a lawyer, get the local animal control involved, take this person to court. You do not need this board to hear this or do any of this. This dog could not have been in that bad a shape or else you would have taken these steps already. Immideately upon the dogs arrival, including posting here. But 2 weeks after you come here with hardly enough gusto that would warrant a really terrible condition being present. Response: If you had the breed's best interest at heart that's exactly the kind of suggestions you would have been making. Instead, it is clear that as a breeder you only have the breeder's interest at heart. And again, I didn't follow a schedule approved by you to come to this board so I'm lying about the dog's condition. You state: And these were your words: " top money as good prospects". $1200 is hardly top money. You say yourself that you have found pups from $1000 to $1500, yet you do not question why a young adult a year and a half later would not cost more. Response: I never said I was looking for a top prospect for $1200 and you know it. And I did "question it" and I was told a lie. You state: Let me tell you another opinion: Most of these issues that are brought here are about money... If it had been about just the dog from day one, you would have come here right away and written with outrage and worry about the dog. But that did not happen, did it? So forgive me for having seen it all and not quite putting so much faith in most of what I read here. Response: Again ou want me to follow your approved schedule. "Come here right away" "You would have written with outrage and worry" And again I failed to do it in a way or a schedule approved by D.H. so I'm lying AND it's all about money, not the dog. You really are a piece of work D.H. Didn't you also write this: "Here is a straight up opinion: If that dog arrived in such horrid condition, this board is the wrong approach" I should have written in right away but this board is the wrong approach. oookaay! I think I got it! You state: Yes to getting pix and asking dates, but be respectful of peoples time and don't ask for new ones of the others are only a few weeks old. Response: That is just about unintelligible (look it up) but I think what you are saying is don't bother the poor breeder too much! You state: No to an itemized bill if you pay a package price. Yes to an itemized bill if you pay for things individually. Yes to asking for this in advance if you want it itemized, don't complain later. Contracts mean nothing if they will not be reinforced. Response: Again almost unintelligible, but what's wrong if I ask for itemization? What are you hiding? Are you afraid some hidden charges are goint to come out? You have pretty much made clear what your opinion is of those pesky buyers! Demanding Honesty for crying out loud! And they lie too!