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by Gustav on 10 June 2010 - 13:06
Oso says SV Judges are taking these things seriously.....Do you believe that yourself or are you spouting some BS that was spewed to you by a SV judge. Let's look at the facts!!! For the past 5 years the weakness and lack of courage of top VA dogs have been noted during the protection part of the SS. So last year a dog with Stella temperament and even a progeny group no less, Javir , was shown at the Seiger show and given a rating of V fiftysomething. He should have gone VA if for no other reason than he has excellent structure and an overcompensation of the thing showlines need....nerve and and genetic diversity. But the SV Judges are taking these things seriously, when they know full well that a VA designation has an inordinate impact on who breeds to the dog by many of you show sheep. Take it one step further...how many of the SV judges that breed showlines do you think bred to Javir since his SS entry to "demonstrate" that they are"taking these things seriously". Check it out. As long as they can blow smoke up your a-- and people run around and regurgitate this nonsense when the FACTS clearly demonstrate business as usual ....the show breed will continue in the handbasket. You cannot undo the traits created by longtime backmassing on black and red dogs by continuing to breed to black and red dogs of those same lines. IMPOSSIBLE. Sooooooo.....the SV Judges are taking these things seriously.......YAWN!!!!, People wake up and become German Shepherds instead of the sheep!!!
by oso on 10 June 2010 - 13:06
They say they are taking it seriously, lets see, certainly I have read a lot about this issue recently written by the judges in question, and in recent shows over-angulated dogs have been put back. However, this does not mean that they are going to swing to the opposite extreme. Javir is a good dog and has done well, but he is still too far from what they consider ideal in type and structure to ever be VA, or used by these judges for breeding. If they practice what they preach they will be using dogs with firm hocks and good - but not overly pronounced - rear angulation.
by Abby Normal on 10 June 2010 - 16:06
So true Gustav
Oso said - Javir is a good dog and has done well, but he is still too far from what they consider ideal in type and structure to ever be VA
Herein lies the whole problem 'too far from what THEY consider ideal in type and structure.....(and let's not forget that oh so important factor - colour) that's why nothing changes - they cannot see anything else but what they have now as ideal (and highly lucrative) - so how can we ever hope that they will have the vision to change anything for the better? It takes the phrase 'kennel blindness' to a whole new level, but should in this case be applied in a wider context and be known as 'international breed blindness'. And breeders everywhere, in true sheep fashion will continue to copy the SV, and so we can expect to see the end of days for the breed before too long at this rate.
IMO Javir is closer by a million miles to the ACTUAL breed standard (not their current selective 'interpretation' of it) than any of the SL dogs, VA or otherwise.
Oso said - Javir is a good dog and has done well, but he is still too far from what they consider ideal in type and structure to ever be VA
Herein lies the whole problem 'too far from what THEY consider ideal in type and structure.....(and let's not forget that oh so important factor - colour) that's why nothing changes - they cannot see anything else but what they have now as ideal (and highly lucrative) - so how can we ever hope that they will have the vision to change anything for the better? It takes the phrase 'kennel blindness' to a whole new level, but should in this case be applied in a wider context and be known as 'international breed blindness'. And breeders everywhere, in true sheep fashion will continue to copy the SV, and so we can expect to see the end of days for the breed before too long at this rate.
IMO Javir is closer by a million miles to the ACTUAL breed standard (not their current selective 'interpretation' of it) than any of the SL dogs, VA or otherwise.
by CrysBuck25 on 10 June 2010 - 19:06
I'm no expert, but as I'm watching the video, I am seeing that there's something...wrong...there. The dogs are substantial in the front, and then they slope down to a rear end that is just not proportionate with the overall dog. It looks weak, underdeveloped, something.
The GSD is supposed to be proportionate...Everything should fit. But these dogs have heavy, heavy bodies and unsubstantial rear ends..All in all not beautiful to me.
I find myself leaning more toward dogs that look as if their parts were made for them...they fit and are strong. These dogs...if I had some of these 'top" dogs, I'd never admit that I paid for them.
Crys
The GSD is supposed to be proportionate...Everything should fit. But these dogs have heavy, heavy bodies and unsubstantial rear ends..All in all not beautiful to me.
I find myself leaning more toward dogs that look as if their parts were made for them...they fit and are strong. These dogs...if I had some of these 'top" dogs, I'd never admit that I paid for them.
Crys
by Xeph on 10 June 2010 - 20:06
I have seen a person say, "oh the neck carriage is a fault, but I know what I need to win."
You mean me. Winning is not the most important thing to me (having fun is actually), and every dog has faults, but you take a dog with faults, and you improve upon them. Dog doesn't have proper carriage of neck? You breed to a dog that does have proper carriage and see where your improvement is in the area. Same thing goes for shoulders, bone, substance, type, ear set, nerve, temperament, drive, etc.
You mean me. Winning is not the most important thing to me (having fun is actually), and every dog has faults, but you take a dog with faults, and you improve upon them. Dog doesn't have proper carriage of neck? You breed to a dog that does have proper carriage and see where your improvement is in the area. Same thing goes for shoulders, bone, substance, type, ear set, nerve, temperament, drive, etc.
by Abby Normal on 10 June 2010 - 22:06
Crys
You are right, and it needs no expert eye to see that there is a serious problem in construction - unless that is you breed and/or show these dogs. For the last 20+ years ordinary people have been challenging the way the construction of the breed has changed to what is often now referred to as a 'frog dog'. Unstable in the rear end, and as you say, disproportionate.
You echo my thoughts that the dogs do not look as though everything 'fits', and they are far from beautiful in my eyes, with the exception of the working line which I believes most truly reflects correct structure. I think that many people (I certainly know several) who have had GSDs for years are re-evaluating whether it is a breed that they want to continue with in the future, no matter that they still love the breed, the health, structural problems and genetic saturation are just becoming overwhelming. We are no doubt witnessing the demise of a wonderful breed, and there is serious doubt in my mind if it can ever be salvaged.
You are right, and it needs no expert eye to see that there is a serious problem in construction - unless that is you breed and/or show these dogs. For the last 20+ years ordinary people have been challenging the way the construction of the breed has changed to what is often now referred to as a 'frog dog'. Unstable in the rear end, and as you say, disproportionate.
You echo my thoughts that the dogs do not look as though everything 'fits', and they are far from beautiful in my eyes, with the exception of the working line which I believes most truly reflects correct structure. I think that many people (I certainly know several) who have had GSDs for years are re-evaluating whether it is a breed that they want to continue with in the future, no matter that they still love the breed, the health, structural problems and genetic saturation are just becoming overwhelming. We are no doubt witnessing the demise of a wonderful breed, and there is serious doubt in my mind if it can ever be salvaged.
by Red Sable on 10 June 2010 - 22:06
What is Javir's full name so I can check him out, please?
by GSDSRULE on 10 June 2010 - 23:06
I have seen a person say, "oh the neck carriage is a fault, but I know what I need to win."
You mean me. Winning is not the most important thing to me (having fun is actually), and every dog has faults, but you take a dog with faults, and you improve upon them. Dog doesn't have proper carriage of neck? You breed to a dog that does have proper carriage and see where your improvement is in the area. Same thing goes for shoulders, bone, substance, type, ear set, nerve, temperament, drive, etc.
Yep, I mean you. It's not like the GSD breed is going to go extinct if some of these "maybe fixit matings" don't take place.
And AM showlines are for the most part, ugly, disjointed looking freaks. IMO
It is a frakkin crime what show breeders have done to dogs, not just GSD's, many breeds have been "improved" (NOT)
by breeding for extremes.
Now try and tell me to shut up like you did at the other board.
You mean me. Winning is not the most important thing to me (having fun is actually), and every dog has faults, but you take a dog with faults, and you improve upon them. Dog doesn't have proper carriage of neck? You breed to a dog that does have proper carriage and see where your improvement is in the area. Same thing goes for shoulders, bone, substance, type, ear set, nerve, temperament, drive, etc.
Yep, I mean you. It's not like the GSD breed is going to go extinct if some of these "maybe fixit matings" don't take place.
And AM showlines are for the most part, ugly, disjointed looking freaks. IMO
It is a frakkin crime what show breeders have done to dogs, not just GSD's, many breeds have been "improved" (NOT)
by breeding for extremes.
Now try and tell me to shut up like you did at the other board.
by Abby Normal on 11 June 2010 - 08:06
Red Sable
Javir vom Talka Marda (enjoy)
Javir vom Talka Marda (enjoy)
by Xeph on 11 June 2010 - 13:06
*shrugs* Ok. Shut up.
I enjoy doing performance with my dogs too, so a dog that's over done is no good to me, and there are good ones out there. I really like the German crosses, but I'm in the minority.
I do know of one working line dog that was recently bred to an American dog, and it looks like the puppies will be nice performance prospects.
By the way, the ACTUAL quote was:
She had a very upright, long, elegant neck. Correct? Not really (she could possibly be ewe necked), but I know what wins. That said, I would have been compromising for front as she had a steeper upper arm.
/quote
And that was not what I wanted.
I enjoy doing performance with my dogs too, so a dog that's over done is no good to me, and there are good ones out there. I really like the German crosses, but I'm in the minority.
I do know of one working line dog that was recently bred to an American dog, and it looks like the puppies will be nice performance prospects.
By the way, the ACTUAL quote was:
She had a very upright, long, elegant neck. Correct? Not really (she could possibly be ewe necked), but I know what wins. That said, I would have been compromising for front as she had a steeper upper arm.
/quote
And that was not what I wanted.
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