Neuter - Page 3

 DD, the behavior you're citing is habit, though. Not one of the things you'd likely see a big change in, and yet another reason against the blanket policy of neutering for behavior.

The territorial and dominant habits were there from the day I met him at 7 weeks - the little bastard was terrorizing his litter mates and driving his mother crazy.  That suggests to me he was genetically pre-disposed to be that way, even if it took puberty to really bring out the full range of dominance.  

Jenni,

You just shot your own argument down. The OP was wondering about neutering and effects of it on his training his dog in PP. The fact is that training is behavioral. So assuming the training is well done, neutering will have little effect on the performance of the dog, assuming he is of a temperament in the first place that is suited for PP training. As you know, not all dogs are so suited to such training, even GSDs and other working breeds. 

The comment about Ed was because someone above cited a web link to his opinion on neutering. My point is that an opinion is just that, an opinion. There are plenty of anecdotal arguments about behavior for and against neutering, including many dog owners engaged in LE who will talk about how neutering did nothing spectacular to the dog. Why? Because it is about the training the dog has had, and the attitude of the owner, and the way the owner and dog and environment interact from that point forward. 

There is a clear answer to behavioral changes associated with thyroid problems in dogs and there are many, many studies that discuss the problem. There are fewer studies about canine behavior and neutering, but the behaviors that are so often problematic are related to the expression of sexuality in a dog. That may change, but given proper diet, exercise and stimulation, the temperament AND behavior of a dog is not going to change. Too often people let their spayed or neutered dog get fat. That IS a direct result of not enough exercise and too much food for the activity level of the dog. 

I could provide a lengthy list of academic sources/studies to read, but most people would not have easy access to them without being in a university environment where the library can get access.

Again, for someone who wishes not to spay or neuter a working dog, that is their choice. But for the average pet owner, there can be little doubt that this is a good idea, although the timing is subject to debate.

 Hodie,

Any organism's behavior is influenced by several factors---genetics, environment (that includes training), diet, overall health.  And when I say organism, that includes mammals and of course dogs are mammals. You keep saying there is no scientific basis supporting that neutering a dog affects its ability in the area of personal protection.  There is a lot of scientific evidence about how testosterone levels in male mammals (that includes dogs) affects their strength, muscle mass, and stamina (or energy level).  I would surmise that anyone who wants a personal protection dog would want to optimize their strength and stamina by keeping them intact.  It doesn't mean that a neutered dog would not do well in personal protection, it just means that an intact male would have more strength and stamina.   Therefore, the intact male would have an edge over the neutered male.   I could also provide academic/scientific resources as well.  After all, I have a degree in biology and in medical technology.  

 You both misunderstood my meaning in my post to DD. 

I meant that while he may not be able to naturally react anymore, due to missing a bunch of parts and key ingredients, the old habits are ingrained enough for him to still display the behavior...which is entirely useless behavior, I might add. Nuisance behavior that vets try to tell people will go away w/neutering. When the dog was establishing those behaviors, he had all his parts, and that was his temperament, for better or worse. 

Now, ask that same dog to do something *new* and see how it goes; he has nothing to fall back on, and is missing key components in natural decision-making for a dog (instincts and hormones). This is why the example of the already trained detection dog who now has little desire to work is more pertinent to this discussion, IMO, than DD's example of the "surly" dog. The detection dog still knows what he's supposed to do, however, his drive to do it has been markedly diminished. 

Same with PP training; depending on the training, you may be able to get a neutered dog to work, but due to the fact that the very hormones responsible for the necessary aggression have been removed, I certainly would never trust that dog in a real situation to behave/react naturally. 

When people have procedures concerning the reproductive organs, has anyone ever noticed that they are put on hormone replacement? Why is it that we think our dogs don't suffer the same consequences from lopping off their parts???

Most people are not nearly as concerned with what is natural as I am, and I understand that, and I also understand that I am right and they are wrong.  LOL!



I wish I hadn't come back in the living room to shut off the computer; I need to CLEAN, not argue neutering! Argh. LOL

 "I meant that while he may not be able to naturally react anymore, due to missing a bunch of parts and key ingredients, the old habits are ingrained enough for him to still display the behavior...which is entirely useless behavior, I might add. Nuisance behavior that vets try to tell people will go away w/neutering. When the dog was establishing those behaviors, he had all his parts, and that was his temperament, for better or worse."

Snarling at the other male while eating absolutely = nuisance behavior.  Snarling at the gate when strangers approached, on the other hand, may have been useful to dissuade would-be burglars.  I probably should have worked harder on discouraging nuisance territoriality behaviors in the house, but that's on me.  None of it changed one iota upon neutering, though.

ggturner,

Of course, your statement about a variety of factors influencing behavior in any organism is correct. However, despite the changes you mention, and that I would agree with in general, there are NO studies suggesting that a dog who is trained for PP will be more or less capable simply because it is or is not neutered. That is a fact. We are not talking about someone who wants to build excess muscle or build up stamina....so a lack of hormones is not going to matter to the extent that suddenly the animal will be unable to perform. It is also a matter of degree and it is also a matter of environment. A dog who cannot do SAR after neutering has something else going on and I would bet on this..... A dog who is less protective to the extent that it was ineffective also has a problem, but little of it is related to a lack of testosterone. Sometimes too, it is the simple inaccurate observation or work of the owner that suggests sudden such behavior changes. If it was of a temperament to begin with that was correct for such training, and given all other factors remaining the same, the dog can and will remain a good candidate. Many of the police officers I know have neutered dogs and these dogs continue to perform their jobs admirably.

Jenn,.......yes, you are right about one thing LOL ....the importance of leaving the computer to go work. I too must go outside with the dogs before the storm hits....already it is clouding up, temps dropping and wind picking up. Big snow, minus zero plus wind chills, high temps in single digits are what I have to look forward to for the next two days. Ughh.....

Where is Phil ?

"there are NO studies suggesting that a dog who is trained for PP will be more or less capable simply because it is or is not neutered. That is a fact."

  So what you are saying is that we don't know. I can agree with that to an extent and knowing that I would certainly err on the side of not neutering. If the bad behaviors remain unchanged then why on earth would anyone neuter a PPD? If it ain't broke....don't fix it.  

Sporty,

That is exactly correct. However, there is anecdotal comments and experience. So personally, I look to see what people who have police and other working dogs say, as well as rely upon my own experience of working with hundreds of GSDs for many, many years. But I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just present an alternative viewpoint. Take that for what it is worth.