Training with each other - Page 3

Jim, could you tell us the tests you use, and do you have a pass or fail for each exercise or do you have some give and take room on the dog?

Faq2,

We grade each individual test or evaluation on a scale of 1 to 10. Since there is no perfect dog, at least I haven't found one yet; we do make allowances in certain categories. We have a chart and will compare scores between the different dogs. Here is the selection process copied from an older thread. It is long and I'm using my iPhone so I hope it comes out ok. 

We test the dogs in a somewhat standardized fashion so we can rate all of the dogs on the same scale.  However, depending what we see we will make some changes with each dog we test.  Most of the dogs we test are "green" and range from 12 months to 3 years.  By "green" the dog usually has little training, but all of the dogs we see have some initial training. There really is no such thing as a truly "green" dog these days.  First we have a handler take the dog out in a field and just walk around, no stimulation and we test for gun shyness / sharpness.  From a distance we fire a gun and observe the reaction, we move closer and fire again.  Then we move towards the dog and fire.  I like a gun fire neutral dog, aware of the sound but not overly concerned by it.  I will end the test right there and move to the next dog if I see an adverse reaction. An aggressive reaction is ok as long as it is directed towards the person firing and not the handler.  I prefer the dog to be alert and not aggressive to the gunfire until the person begins to move closer and fires while challenging the dog.  Next, we will test for ball, retrieve and hunt drive.  We will throw several items and see the dogs interest, we will play with the dog and see how it reacts.  We may expose the dog to some outdoor environmental stimulus like a playground and steps and a slide to see how it reacts.  At this point we are looking at temperament and structure.  We will do some DM tests and watch the dog run and jump. 

If we determine the dog is sound and has a good temperament we will move on to the bite work.  I will approach the dog from a distance suspiciously wearing a sleeve and watch the dog reaction.  I will then throw the sleeve and continue to the dog taking a defensive approach.  This is where I approach with no equipment and begin to pressure the dog.  The dog must key on me and not the sleeve and really impress me that he will bite me for real.  I often get close enough to touch the dog and the dog has to turn on and be very serious.  I am not going to discuss in any detail on this forum how I accomplish this.  People who are serious about working dogs will understand how to do this, others will not and explaining it will further confuse them.  PM me if you like and I will go into details.  The dogs that impress me as being serious with self confidence and real aggression will move forward to the next phase of testing.  I am not easily impressed and expect a lot from a potential Police K-9. 

I'll add more later.

edited to clear up iphone issues.

I'll have to edit this ost when I get back to my computer. Editing doesn't seem to work on the iPhone. The original post was titled "48 hours.". If you want to check that out.

Jim.....if you are ever near St. Louis, please let me know. I think it would be awesome to meet you and have your objective evaluation of my dogs. As you know, I worked with a retired LEO K-9 supervisor for awhile. Your description of evaluations now explains much of what my trainer was doing at the time.

Hi Renee,
If I am ever out that way, I'll look you up.  I'd love to see your dogs.  If you ever get out to Virginina, you have an open invitation. 

Ok, continued.....

After I test them with out equipment and push the dog's into defense I'll give them a bite to relieve stress and see how their bite is. Any dogs that back down here or go into avoidance are out. I am looking for a hard committed strike and a hard bite. Full and calm is a bonus, but not a necessity for a Police K9. The bite must be hard and the dog intense. I will then do an old fashioned "courage test" Running away from the dog for 50 or 60 yards and having the handler send the dog. I will turn and charge into the dog and try to pressure them again. If I can run them off or cause them to really gather they are out of the process. If I see a highly prey driven, equipment fixated dog I will carry a second sleeve and throw it in front of the dog on the courage test. You will be surprised how many dogs will do a cart wheel over the sleeve on the ground and bite that sleeve ignoring me running straight at them. I will grab the dogs leash and attempt to get it to drop the thrown sleeve and turn and engage me. Points go to the dogs that will do this. Remember, these are potential Police dogs, not pets and not sport dogs.

Next we will use either a suit or sleeve depending on the situation and run off into the woods out of site to see how well the dog pursues and engages. We are looking for speed here and an intense fight in the woods.

The dogs that pass so far are taken into a building with slick floors and small rooms. Here we test environmental issues. This is done in a full suit. We will take the dogs on a bite up stairs and into dark rooms and close the door. We want dogs that stay on the bite regardless of the stress of the situation. We grade the dogs in each step of the process and will only consider the dogs that pass everything and make it through till the end. 

We don't even test the dogs for their tracking ability. We do test for hunt drive and prey drive.  If a dog has sufficient drives and does well in all of the tests we do, we can teach them to track. For me a dog with a foundation in SchH tracking would be a plus. However, I wouldn't mention sport to some K9 guys, some don't see the foundation work as a benefit. Some of the dogs we see have never seen a bite suit so I will also use a sleeve. Almost all of them have seen a sleeve. The big things I look for are a self assured, outgoing social temperament. Good with gunfire, and high drive. I also want the dogs to have natural aggression and want to bite for "real" when confronted. The dogs can never show avoidance, submission or back down or not commit in the fight. Recently, I tested about 20 dogs for our PD from different K9 vendors, I would only have considered two of the 20 offered for sale for Police K9's. The rest didn't make it through our selection process and I chose an 11 month old Mali, who is turning out to be fantastic.

Hope that answers your question,

Jim

Jim,

My friend you are one of the many on my list to visit iwhen I head back home to VA.  Nice posts.

Thanks Jim. I will p.m. you a little later, sorry i dont have time right now.

R1,

I have been accused of having a big mouth..not a big brain.
As long as you can back your *********up...you can have a big
mouth. But I try my best to keep everything productive.

Steve1,

Ron got a dog off Orry, ...Tom...when he arrived at the
airport, Tom had broken through the crate and bit the
cargo handler.... Much to Ron's dismay. Ron was offered
14000, for Tom but decided to try and train him. The rest
is history. Ron learned an important lessen in that if
you choose this type of dog. There are some different parameters
you must use. Ron is a great trainer I wish he would do more clinics
here in USA. This maybe another WTF moment for those who don't
know what I am talking about. But there are those people who work
this type of dog that know exactly what Ron's foundation work is, with
his dogs. And people from Belgium, France and the Netherlands.
It is not the same as you find in  most of Europe.

R1....if you ever meet Como...you would say ..WTF..!!!

I don't drink or take drugs...I am just a little different...but I do know dogs very well.
Maybe a little  to well for this forum.

Jim ...Bernard works tough dogs and has helped many people get passed the
fear and move on to the understanding of such dogs. They are bred on Alpha males
from generation to generation. The thing is see the drive and focus from  Bernard and
the foundation work of Ron.....Who knows in time you my get some Belgium Ring experience
as well...Which is all reality based, for real situations. ...Good luck to you all. Happy 2011

         Max,,,,,You know I meant NO disrespect...I love ya...And having a big brain was a compliment in my book....

Max, I know Bernhard well. He and I are friends. Some day I would love to try Belgium Ring. But, for right now I get plenty of "reality " based training. Both in training and real life.