Questions & answers about GSD structure/ conformation - Page 3

 Rik,

We checked first the angle in the diagram (link you posted) and it is 100 degrees shoulder blade length 26 mm and upper arm length 29 mm.
The shoulder blade of dog (picture posted above) we found it to be 125 degrees, shoulder blade length 21mm and upper arm length 20 mm.

Hope this is as correct as possible.

Ibrahim 

 Rik I understand the two way shoulder lay in and back, to show you that I understood it right, the shoulder is inclined from elbow towards the spine and the space in between the two shoulder joints of both front arms is more than the space between tips of both blades where they meet with the spine at the withers location from both sides. In my reply to pod I will discuss this more.

Ibrahim

 The blue lines is how we measured the the shoulder angles and related lengths.
The yellow lines is how we correctly measure the height
The dark green represents the correct desired placement of shoulder blades as per the standard. 
Please mind that the lines are drawn with paint software so there is minor inaccuracy.
Now if you agree to and approve of these lines then we can move on to some more points. 

 This is how we verified and measured the shoulder angle of Rik'd dog and if standard illustration is correct then the shoulder blade is over placed to the back.

hello Ibrahim, your blue line is more correct than mine. I will have to be careful in the future.

You have probably seen this video but it is the best I have found for good gait.

Watch the elbow and upper arm. When the dog fully extends the front leg, you can almost draw a straight line from the tip of the blade through the upper arm, elbow and leg.This is the shoulder opening up in movement. A good shoulder opening allows for the extended front reach on this dog. Notice the dogs foot moves beyond the nose when extended.

www.youtube.com/watch

Some dogs do not exhibit good shoulder opening (different reasons) and the step may be shorter in front.

Here's something I've always wondered about.  Why the steeper pasterns in a GSD?  Most breeds have much more "upright" pasterns, I always thought the steeper ones you see in the GSD were one of those style things, like heads that are lacking in stop in some breeds, even though the standard calls for a stop.  But in the diagram it looks like the "down" pasterns are actually desired.

So my question is, why?  What does a 22 degree pastern do for the dog structurally or in the movement?

 Thank you Rik I did watch this video several times before but this is the first time I watch it knowing what to watch and look for and this will help me in what I'm going to draw out from what pod and Sonora stated earlier about blades placement and what they provide to whithers height.

All, pod & sonora and of course Rik

First this is my own understanding of shoulder blade and withers plus forward movement as we are talking about it at the moment and I will leave rear angulation and total balance to a later stage:

1. Shoulder blade correct lay or placement is and starts right behind the last bone of the neck, and top point of it should be level with or very slightly lower than the spine.
2. Withers height is not connected nor reflected by the mere location of top points of blades (being level, higher or lower) than the spine itself. status of withers is only due to how the spine flows from neck then dips a bit then flows to start of loin etc. Maybe due also to mass of muscles on top of the spine and here I ask you is there a muscle on top of the spine or only flesh, fat and skin?
The proof to that is the fact that the blades are not physically connected to the spine and do not push the spine higher or lower but they affect how the eye sees the withers. (I think pod said this one way or the other and agrees to it !!!) while in what sonora explained I'm not sure if my understanding is correct measured on his explanation scale!!.
3. How the blades are placed may provide sort of indication to what the status of the withers is but not a general rule and should not be how we see and evaluate the withers less we may conceive some withers other than what they are really are.
4. I can not when I think and analyse the angulation of the GSD put aside my personal study of engineering so I don't know if it applies correctly to the dog movement or I am heading myself in a wrong direction.
5. From basics I compare the front total arm (from top of blade to feet pads) of GSD to a hinged cantiliver at one end free at the other, hinge being at the blade by the muscle mass and this hinge continues to more than 2/3rds of the upper arm so supposedly a very strong hinge. This hinge is a true hinge but it has a certain flexibility and room for bones to move slightly in the muscle container and at the same time the muscles hold and move the bones themselves forward and back.
This cantiliver has three joints in it namely shoulder, elbow and pastern, the shoulder and pastern are more flexible than the elbow which is semi rigid. I can imagine that there is what I will call a flexibile but very strong wire that runs the total length of this cantiliver, this wire is loose when standing, in movement it is fully tensioned when arm reaches full reach then pulled back to its full loose when reaching perpendicular then fully tensioned in full rear reach. 
6. The more the total front arm is extended (semi straight) the more reach a dog makes in one stride. By the way this straightness will not be 100% especially at the elbow.
7. Now regarding the placement of the shoulder blade, if higher than the spine, I imagine this is a drawback to total arm strength as a part of the blade is out from the muscle container, endurance plus firmness of the total arm will be negatively affected.
8. In a poorly muscled GSD or maybe when a puppy reach is more due to no fully developed strength of muscles, when muscles are more developed and stronger the opening of the reach becomes less, but when lean and athletic muscled (well oiled) then it gains a better reach

Please correct me where I am wrong in the above and tell me where I am right. Then I will go to some more points. Thanks in advance

Ibrahim

Good question malndobe.  I hope someone answers.
Your wording had me a little confused at first, as I consider steep to mean the same as upright.

Red Sable is right.  Steep and upright mean the same thing.

A more sloping pastern has more shock-absorbing capability than a steep, upright pastern and is therefore more appropriate for a dog who needs the shock absorbency because it's trotting all day long.

For a dog that was originally designed to tend sheep all day, a short, stiff pastern would decrease the working life of that dog.  The longer, flexible pastern absorbs more shock and also helps the animal have a longer stride than the short-pasterned dogs.  Again,  better for a dog who's job is covering a lot of ground without either tiring or sustaining injury.

Of course it's possible to have pasterns that are too long and weak and do not give enough support.

If you are familiar with horses, the same thing applies.  Yes, too long & weak pasterns are a fault, but we're not talking about those.  You would not want a horse with a short, upright pastern.  These pasterns absorb less of the concussion every time a foot strikes the ground.