where have all the good, tough dogs gone? - Page 3

 Tenmon,

I think I got your point, the dog recovering shortly, standing his grounds fearlessly defending itself (not the rubbish cans). I heard such description of the good old GSDs. I am sure the well informed and professionals still find such dogs when they look hard, but as they say you have to look hard which means the good ones are not the majority nowadays.

Ibrahim

I don't see how the dog growling at you is much different than a dog growling or biting you for coming near his food bowl........bad dog

I still believe they are here and know for sure that hard dogs are heer alive and well in the good ole usa.NO bloodline produces all hard ,civil dogs.some will stay when the going gets ruff and others get going.all need to be tested for courage to tell for sure.BIG MONEY for showline has and will continue to dominate the gsd world.only a few really breed to preserve the old working lines and they don't get big  bucks like the showline folks do.hope you find what you are looking for.

Do you know anything about the training of this bloodhound? Or is he like it sounds, allowed to be king by your neighbor? Could be more that obedience to a master and leadership for survival are at odds with one another and not just genetics, that determined the bloodhounds refusal to back down, and even retaliate against you and your shovel.

 Finding a good tough dog isn't as hard as finding a handler who can handle them responsibly. JMO

There are still some good old Tough dogs out there, you just have to look a little harder to find them.

Too many so called experts breeding dogs, any breed of dog, for profit

   I think that the reason you aren't seeing GSD's "the way they used to be" is because of the extreme popularity of the breed. The breed, as you know, is quite versatile. GSD's are becoming more and more specialized every generation. This tends to water down the lines because people are breeding for specific things a lot of the time. When you breed for specific purposes other traits get left behind.
    The question about why a "Schutzhund" dog won't protect its owner is getting old. Schutzhund is a sport and it is getting more technical and specialized all the time. Some dogs will protect naturally and some won't. I don't think that this has ever been any different and it never will be. Of those who don't protect naturally, a lot of these dogs are capable of it, but, they won't do it because they have never been exposed to a situation where they have to and/or aren't trained to do so. They are trained to compete in a sport. Think of it this way. In football (American) you have players that specialize in certain things. A punter is a good example of this. Everyone on the team should be capable of punting the football, but, only one person is really good at it, and the punter, generally speaking, while capable of playing football, isn't good at anything else.
     Your neighbor's dog was one situation on one day. He either felt threatened and was up to the threat, or, as I think Keith was trying to point out, there was a fence between you. There are a lot of dogs that are fence fighters, but, remove the fence and they are big babies.
Let's also try not to forget that an animal's first line of defense is always to run away. That is what keeps them alive. If you replace your neighbor's dog with a wolf chances are it would have run off in that situation (of course there are exceptions depending on circumstances). I don't think that any of us would have been saying that the wolf wasn't tough because it ran off. We would be saying it did what came naturally to stay alive.

frankm205

Finding a good tough dog isn't as hard as finding a handler who can handle them responsibly. JMO

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Frank. You can only produce as many of these dogs as you can find responsible homes for. And truly responsible homes are hard to come by. People's egos get in the way and they think they want something that when it gets there, they wonder why they wanted that. Often, they won't admit the truth, and the dog gets blamed and ends up in a bad situation. 

I had one recently that I had placed very carefully and thankfully, I made a good choice. The owner had some personal circumstances come up and called me instead of sending the dog down the river to the next person who probably couldn't handle her safely. I bought her back w/no hesitation and she's here now and will stay with me.

Breeders get a lot of backlash for not breeding the toughest, strongest dogs (and it's often deserved) but where, I ask, are we supposed to put these dogs (provided we care) in a society who takes zero responsibility for their actions? 

Maybe there should be less breeders and breeders should breed less. This is one of the topics that inspired me to start another topic asking what a GSD is. I knew I would get little to no response because it seems like there are multiple thoughts on the standard and what a GSD should be. Reading many threads on here and working with pet people everyday, most people do not know what a tough dog is.

Excellent points! 
Don and Jenni, I think if breeders understand what they are breeding and if there were "caps" put on the breeding of such dogs, maybe as you are saying that there would be fewer breeders and breedings occurring.  I don't know how you would do this but the point is that I see, just like many of you have indicated, there is a specializing and an watering down of the breed to meet an individual/groups' needs.

In specializing, you lose some traits and this might just be the specific ones we are trying to hold on to.  Leerburg tapes indicated that a dog either has a civil trait or they don't.  That this is a genetic material.  They either have or not.  I don't know if that true, but the breeder of some of the top tough dogs out of Germany also said they test for civil first before doing prey.  Correct or not, I don't know. 

Truly this bloodhound was not intimidated by a threat, there was no fence between us, there was him and me, squared off.  He had the whole front yard, the street, etc. to take flight, but with a clear head, did not run, stood his ground even when I yelled and did threatening moves with the shovel.  He came at me.  Most dogs would have ran!  I know there are tough dogs out there, but they are far and few between. Just like Ibrahim indicated, just need to find them.  

 So now the question comes, are we breeding and training for the sport to put a title on the dog, or do we need something more than that?  It is all well and good to say we have this so call tough dog (perceived from field trials) in our home and when we are threatened they run and hide.  If so, then what is the point.  Yada yada on the why we do the schutzhund, etc., I know all that, but many of us are training far beyond the title.  They are hoping that they will have a home invasion deterrent when necessary.  If the end result is to have both, a titled dog and a protector, and if the trials give us this end product, then that is excellent.  However, if we are strutting about with a sch3, or a KNPV, or whatever titled dog that will no sooner run away from a real threat, then the trials are only accomplishing a half measure and the breeding and evolving of the breed is not improving, but being specialized and watered down.

 

Just my opinion.