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by Lief on 02 December 2010 - 10:12
a shock is something unexpected that cannot be controlled so that will not help you train the dog. you really need to collar condition the dog for three basic behaviors and use the collar to reinforce them . by hooking the lead to an electronic collar and popping the leash concurrent with the nick you basicly have an automatic choke chain than is not affected by the fact the leash is not there but you must create the correct ''muscle memory''.to get results because the collar is contracting the muscles you create ''memories'' its crucial; they are the ones you want! .....first you have to condition the dog to move in your direction my suggestion is get the pager collar the is way more margin for error!
by Abby Normal on 02 December 2010 - 11:12
A shock collar (lets call a spade a spade) IMO should be an absolutely last resort for correcting dangerous behaviours (like car chasing). Then and only then would I consider it's use.
I really struggle to understand considering using this on a young dog for such basic training, which will come with consistent use of normal reward based training methods. I would put in the time and would happily travel one hour to obtain good training advice.
I really struggle to understand considering using this on a young dog for such basic training, which will come with consistent use of normal reward based training methods. I would put in the time and would happily travel one hour to obtain good training advice.
by Lief on 02 December 2010 - 11:12
sadly we have found fhe only people who call it a shock collar are people who uneducated about the collar ask anyone that calls it that what books they have read about collar training?? they will say none! what trainers have they worked with?? none! reliable off leash control is not basic training in my opinion its not the nature of dogs to turn about face and come back to the handler off leash you have to condition that and then have tools for reinforcement ..the thinking thats its a last resort only in the most extreme cases is wrong and again punsihment training like you describe is the least effective least permenant way to use the collar its an amazing tool that enables people who are not professional handlers to have off leash control and yes I'm certain there are all kinds of people who will come on here and say my dog does this and this off leash regardless of the distraction[ I wanna see those videos] but that does not help other people who need help, off leash dogs realize they have free agency tools that help you communicate off leash are invaluable!! dogs that don't come off leash is the number one problem pet owners have this is a 9 months freaky fear biter who had mucho conventional training and was slated to be put down you can see the dogs terrifed attituded in the end video after 6 weeks of ''shocks'' its clear he is acting only out of fear of being shocked! ;]
by Lief on 02 December 2010 - 11:12
by Lief on 02 December 2010 - 12:12
even the humane society is on board!!! We recognize that older products were often unreliable and difficult to use humanely. But we feel that new technology employed by responsible manufacturers has led to products that can be and are being used safely and effectively to preserve the safety and well-being of many dogs and strengthen the bond with their human companions.”
- Dr. Randall Lockwood, Vice President for Research and Educational Outreach, The Humane Society of the United States
- Dr. Randall Lockwood, Vice President for Research and Educational Outreach, The Humane Society of the United States
by Abby Normal on 02 December 2010 - 18:12
Lief
My statement for use of the shock collar for last resort training is not as punishment, but as you say to condition behaviour.
The fact that 'humane societies' are on board does not mean a great deal for me, when you consider the UK's biggest humane society killed 12 GSDs with a bolt gun and thought that was OK too.
For me, the OP is talking basic training. My dogs will recall back to me immediately, and I didn't need to use a shock collar to do it. Before you know where we are this will be a standard tool for normal training, and to me that is totally unnecessary. I do know of trainers that use them, and I have seen some good results in the situations I have described. I still feel the use of them in 'everyday' training is unnecessary, and open to misuse. I don't dispute they have uses in 'some' situations. I have the feeling that we are close to a ban in the UK (if we haven't already).
Yes, I will be that person that says I have a reliable recall and never used a shock collar to achieve it LOL. Which begs the question, if so many people can and have achieved this without the use of a shock collar, where is the need for it for this particular element of training? Why not use a vibrating collar if you need to use any?
My statement for use of the shock collar for last resort training is not as punishment, but as you say to condition behaviour.
The fact that 'humane societies' are on board does not mean a great deal for me, when you consider the UK's biggest humane society killed 12 GSDs with a bolt gun and thought that was OK too.
For me, the OP is talking basic training. My dogs will recall back to me immediately, and I didn't need to use a shock collar to do it. Before you know where we are this will be a standard tool for normal training, and to me that is totally unnecessary. I do know of trainers that use them, and I have seen some good results in the situations I have described. I still feel the use of them in 'everyday' training is unnecessary, and open to misuse. I don't dispute they have uses in 'some' situations. I have the feeling that we are close to a ban in the UK (if we haven't already).
Yes, I will be that person that says I have a reliable recall and never used a shock collar to achieve it LOL. Which begs the question, if so many people can and have achieved this without the use of a shock collar, where is the need for it for this particular element of training? Why not use a vibrating collar if you need to use any?
by Mindhunt1 on 02 December 2010 - 21:12
A shock collar/e-collar/training-collar is just another tool for your tool box and like all tools, should be respected and only be used after proper training in its use. Like all tools, it has its proper uses and like all tools, can be used improperly and can cause harm, a tool can even be used as a device to purposely harm another. No one training method is the perfect method for all dogs and all handlers, that is what makes this board interesting, all the different outlooks, experiences, and viewpoints. Some I agree with, some I don't but it is still interesting
by Slamdunc on 02 December 2010 - 21:12
Many people have developed a "reliable recall" with treats, flat collars, prong collars etc. To say that an E collar is a tool of "last resort" shows how little experience you have with it. There should never be a tool of last resort to shortcut proper training or to gloss over or make up for poor training.
Why not use a vibrating collar???? Why not use the dogs favorite squeaky toy to get it to return?
I would like to know what your definition of a "reliable recall" is? Mine would be dog under intense distraction, high in drive that doesn't want to return because it is so intent on catching what ever it is after. When you call this dog once and it immediately returns every time; is what I'd call reliable.
Jim
Why not use a vibrating collar???? Why not use the dogs favorite squeaky toy to get it to return?
I would like to know what your definition of a "reliable recall" is? Mine would be dog under intense distraction, high in drive that doesn't want to return because it is so intent on catching what ever it is after. When you call this dog once and it immediately returns every time; is what I'd call reliable.
Jim
by Abby Normal on 02 December 2010 - 23:12
Jim
My question about using a vibrating collar was in response to Lief
'tools that help you communicate off leash are invaluable!!
My point was, if your squeaky toy, voice (my choice of off leash communication) etc are deemed insufficient, then why use a shock collar as a tool to help you communicate off leash, why not use a vibrating collar, as it gives you the same ability to 'communicate' at distance.
I agree, their should never be any shortcut over proper training.
I do think there are last resort situations that may require a particular 'tool' or approach, especially if the dog is doing something which is likely to result in it's losing it's life, and all other methods have proved unsuccessful. No I haven't had a great deal of experience with them personally, never had the need to. But I do know of situations where they have been used very successfully. I still see no need for it's use in the situation that the OP outlines, especially with a very young dog.
My definition of a reliable recall is simply that if I call my dog, whatever she may be doing, whatever the situation, she comes back to me. I think the OP is simply wanting a good off leash recall.
My question about using a vibrating collar was in response to Lief
'tools that help you communicate off leash are invaluable!!
My point was, if your squeaky toy, voice (my choice of off leash communication) etc are deemed insufficient, then why use a shock collar as a tool to help you communicate off leash, why not use a vibrating collar, as it gives you the same ability to 'communicate' at distance.
I agree, their should never be any shortcut over proper training.
I do think there are last resort situations that may require a particular 'tool' or approach, especially if the dog is doing something which is likely to result in it's losing it's life, and all other methods have proved unsuccessful. No I haven't had a great deal of experience with them personally, never had the need to. But I do know of situations where they have been used very successfully. I still see no need for it's use in the situation that the OP outlines, especially with a very young dog.
My definition of a reliable recall is simply that if I call my dog, whatever she may be doing, whatever the situation, she comes back to me. I think the OP is simply wanting a good off leash recall.
by Slamdunc on 03 December 2010 - 00:12
Abby Normal,
I do agree that the OP should not use an Ecollar on his dog. I think the OP has some credibility issues and I'm not going to offer him any advice or take him very seriously. Far too often I see the misconceptions of Ecollars being portrayed and felt the need to comment on that. I use an Ecollar every day and it is a fantastic finesse tool when used properly.
JMO,
Jim
I do agree that the OP should not use an Ecollar on his dog. I think the OP has some credibility issues and I'm not going to offer him any advice or take him very seriously. Far too often I see the misconceptions of Ecollars being portrayed and felt the need to comment on that. I use an Ecollar every day and it is a fantastic finesse tool when used properly.
JMO,
Jim
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