What defines Courage in a dog? - Page 3

Is this a test ??  LOL   

Well, I suppose "well-trained" to a certain extent -- however, he did "break" the down command.   However, he broke it to help his Pack Leader when he saw he was harmed.   Now we may say it was out of Love for his Human (Pack) Leader.   (I would use the term "Love" = Trust, Loyalty, Protection of a Pack Member -- in this case, Pack Leader).  

P.S.   The dog did stay in the down command and took a second hit for it.   He should have moved after the First hit !!   I would have !!

Hahhaah

No it,s not a test, I was just curious on what other perceptions were of there dogs Character. I beleve a dog can show courage, just not as the sport uses the term. And maybe the proper term for a dog would be it,s character.

Somewhat related is a discussion I had with my father about racehorses. I stated that a racehorse that breaks it's leg in the race but still struggles to run the race is brave; he said, Stupid!

I think we train our animals to do what we value, we train them to understand the value we place on the activity, & so they will strive to complete the task. And I don't think that our animals have the same emotional responce to pain that we humans do....we see pain as BAD...animals see pain as pain, & don't assign it a value...so if an activity has value, & there is pain completing the activity, that doesn't really factor into the value of the activity. The activity is completed because that's what's expected, unless it's physically impossible to complete it with the injury. But I would think the animal would attempt to complete until the end. That's what's expected. So is that courage? Or good training? Or stupidity? Certainly dogs put the well being of their pack members before their own safety......but is it courage? Or instinct to aid in the survival of the pack?

Does that make ANY sense?? jackie harris

One aspect would be whether the dog recognizes a situation as presenting Danger to his/her own well being, and still reacts to protect.  To overcome the threat to themselves.  That's a definition I've heard of what true Bravery is in Humans, I'd say the same is true in a dog.  When he places himself between his person and a Bear, or Mountain Lion... when they intercept someone acting violently toward their person, the question would be whether a dog can/does perceive this as a danger and threat to themselves, yet put their life @ risk for their person.  Is it merely Pack instinct that kicks in??  If so you might also ask if Human "Bravery" might also be a latent instinct that kicks in, rather than some altruistic behavior? Myself, I prefer to think of it as Bravery in both cases...  

I like to think of it as bravery, too. Also, courage is not the absense of fear, but the ability to respond to the challenge despite it. That's why I don't think it is bad for a dog to raise it's hackles, as long as the dog still reacts as he/she is expected to act, & maintains a cool head. jmo. jackie harris

To me bravery is going forward and acting , even though you might be afraid.

In other words, a brave person jumps in the river to save someone in spite of the fear, not because they have no fear. 

As for dogs, I don't know enough about them to speculate.  I will say the most ferocious display of protection I have ever seen was my Golden Retriever female.  Hubby went somewhere with some co worker,to the coast boating.  Guy drops hubby in the middle of the night (no familiar car sound)  and when he tried to open the bedroom door, Candy went nuts. She threw herself at him carrying on like I never would have believed.  As soon as she realized who it was, she was all lovey.  Shocked me.  Really shocked hubby!

Well thank you to the last few posts. I was poking my eyes out reading the first page. It's not that hard. Courage is the same in dogs. It wouldn't be courage if there wasn't an understanding that there is a chance to be injured or killed. It has nothing to do with hardness. A Doodle can be a hard dog, but lack courage when faced with a threat. Not to open an can of worms, but since we're talking "courage", why not talk about the courage test. More worms... Malinois probably look better in this exercise than any other breed as a whole. BUT!!! I don't think it is "courage" that makes them look good. It is over the top prey drive and I believe most don't even feel threatened. Thus not a true courage test for them. I think most malinois get tunnel vision of the big chew toy running their way and don't notice the rest.

When I read the topic of this thread, I was thinking: Courage is not the absense of fear, but the ability to act, even in spite of fear. 

I was thinking to post such a thought, when I read page 2 and saw that Jackie Harris had already posted that.

I very much believe that is true of both dogs and people.  For example, a bitch attacking a threat to her pups, such as a wolf attacking a bear or a big cat threatening her litter, knows that her young are in danger, knows that the foe will kill her pups, and her, too.  Nevertheless, she fights, sometimes to the death, to protect her young.  She faces the danger.  She is afraid, because she knows that her enemy can kill her, but she fights anyway, in spite of her fear.

Crys

Bob,

This is in my opinion one of the best  threads I've read, and probably one of the most important question I have read as far as genetics,  training, and selection for genetic improvement of our great dogs. A lot of articles have been posted about breeders who have been so succesfull in their breeding programs for many years,and they are people we continue to always go to for information concerning their theorys on breeding. And as we all learn and appreciate all the good and valuable information we recieve from them. The truth is we can never duplicate what another person has done. As an example two differant breeders from differant parts of the world start with exactly the same bloodlines, neither breeder knowing each other. At the end of a 20 year period these dogs will have little in common. The reason for this is personal selection. The word courage and bravery to me are probably one of the most important traits we should strive to not only maintain but improve. Since bravery or courage is only a matter of degrees in which it can be measured. Dogs can display courage in a situations where there is actually  little courage involved. Alot of this is instinct or emotions or fear, and thats not all bad. But there is another level of bravery or courage that reaches a level where it actually  changes from a instinctive or intellectual act to a heart reaction, a thing called gameness. This degree of courage can only come from the brood pen. This degree is only achieved by genetics. It cannot be trained or taught. To our good fortune there are things we can look for in our dogs to evaluate to some degree a dogs level of courage since there are so many differant levels. I was inspired by a story I read about the old czech and slovik border patrol dogs when a handler and his dog  would take off on foot in the snow and be gone sometimes for weeks tracking a bad guy and the dog gets hurt real bad and can barely walk, no food, no fire and the dog finally tracks the guys down and attacks the bad guys under gun fire and heavy resistance. This kind of testing can only happen in a atmosphere where great pressure and pain and stress are put on a dog. I would almost bet this dog had no fear, no turning in him, and I did not see it but I would bet when he got there his bite was deliberate, accurate, and his intention was to kill not just bark and hold. These kind of situations are not all that prevailant for the average breeder today. I see alot of degrees of courage in alot of of these replies. I Just hope we never lose sight of the importance of this quality in our gsd. Like the old man told me one time , NOT ALL MY DOGS HAVE IT< BUT WHEN I SEE IT< I KNOW IT.

Totally agree & thanks Bob,  this is a splendidly deep thread for which I'm not quite sure I have enough coherent thoughts to make a sensible comment on.

I do like what Jackie says in her first post and I think it's dangerous to assign sentiently created attributes to animals.... and yet we all know of instances when animals seem to disprove this. And as desert dog mentions, whatever it is, it's one of the formulative qualities of the GSD character that we should strive to maintain.

It will however give me a great topic to think about whilst taking the hound out for his evening gallop. No doubt after this and a couple of evening scotch's I'll have it all worked out only to forget it when I try to write it down in the morning. Hey ho, such is the life of an ordinary man.

AandA