Which Sport Tests... - Page 3

Nia, please.  A person has the right to defend themselves from malicious gossip.  Its not being "defensive", its called making sure people who don't know us know which one is full of crap, and which one isnt.  My stance on dog fighting, and your snide comments make THAT pretty clear. That's all I can say on that.  You have "sniped" at me several times here, including when you first figured out it was me, (OMG in CAPS!)  and its your style. Again, if you can't take it, don't  give it. Backtracking does not become you.  We absolutely don't have anything to say to each other, and that's a GREAT thing.  : )  Finis.

Sueincc, "provocative"?  Uhm. I enjoy a good discussion on the finer points of dog behavior, especially concerning the sports I enjoy. Sorry if you find that provocative. Not sure why you do.

THANK YOU to those who were able to discuss the topic without the usual sidetrack to gossip and nonsense!

The barrage in ring IS very intimidating, and there can be no doubt it puts considerable pressure onthe dog.  Here is where I see schutzhund putting at least as much pressure (when done WELL) as ring (when done well).  It takes more wonton to bite closer to the head of your prey/antagonist than the extremity.  THis is pretty well played out by cur dogs on the street who ONLY have the nerve to grip the ankle - the point FURTHESTfrom the head, or "where the person lives".   Now kids can get bit onthe face by a cur, because they press in, and the dog lashes out, but I'm talking about where a dog runs out and makes its own decision to bite. OBVIOUSLY a dog which attacks frontally, and up high, isbolder than a dog who runs infrom behind and grabs as far from body mass as possible.

This is not a reflection on the bravery of ring dogs, as they are TRAINED to take this kind of bite. But, having said that, taking numerous "escape" bites on the rear end of a ring decoy is not pressure.  Having to come up high, and even being carried with front feet (or all feet on smaller dogs) off the ground puts thedog ina very pressure situation. 

I have a question for folks more experienced in ring than I:  what are the requirements for the decoy to move INTO the dog? Are there any? This is once the dog is on the sleeve.

To be clear:  I have EQUAL respect for good dogs in either sport and enjoy both tremendously.  I'll find a batch of "dogs coming off" vids, but I don't live on the computer, kids! I've been gone all day to the dog show and training tomorrow sonot sure when it will be. KInda busy with 10 active dogs and one old fat broad! 

As far as bringing it or taking it, a good dog has both. The moxie to look for and pick the fight. And the nerves and the ability to take anything anyone dishes out without backing down. But, I think that what I would call "forward fear aggression" can be misinterpreted for bringing it. In my experience with gsd's the more confident dogs generally pick less fights until you get them riled. I've had two pretty dominant dogs and a lot of ones that fall in between, and the two very confident dominant ones rarely started anything. They didn't bother or have to. It's the insecure ones that mark all over the place, growl at everything and try to push everyone around, worrying endlessly about status. JMO

Yep Diane, provacative.   I am referring to the following statement you made that I have asked you to back up.  In fact I am asking you  for the 3rd time, so I guess you are also being purposely obtuse.  YOU are the one who made the statement,  I'm merely asking you to put your money where your mouth is. 

"you see videos of shepherds and mals coming off becuase the decoy stepped on their toe, or twisted their ankle: these can be examples of high flying, hard biting "bring it" dogs, but animals which can't "take it". "

So where are these videos of all these high flying hard biting Malis and GSDs  that come off because their toes were stepped on?

Changer,

I think these are the people who have done both,

Phil....,Malindobe,....Waleed....Max....Mark....

There is no question In my mind NVBK is the hardest.

But I grew up with respect for the Protection phase of scHh, and
still see it as a builder.

We now have American Judge for NVBK so you my be able to see what I mean in
the future.

As a handler in ScHh you need only worry about the event as a canned program
to pass your dog.

In Ringsport and especially Belgium Ringsport the Judge and Decoy are in
collusion to bring out what ever weakness your dog has. It is much more
dynamic, and difficult to pass. It may take you the same time to put a Ring 1 or Cat3
that it takes to put on a ScHh 3.

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It takes more wonton to bite closer to the head of your prey/antagonist than the extremity. THis is pretty well played out by cur dogs on the street who ONLY have the nerve to grip the ankle - the point FURTHESTfrom the head, or "where the person lives". Now kids can get bit onthe face by a cur, because they press in, and the dog lashes out, but I'm talking about where a dog runs out and makes its own decision to bite. OBVIOUSLY a dog which attacks frontally, and up high, isbolder than a dog who runs infrom behind and grabs as far from body mass as possible.

This is not a reflection on the bravery of ring dogs, as they are TRAINED to take this kind of bite. But, having said that, taking numerous "escape" bites on the rear end of a ring decoy is not pressure. Having to come up high, and even being carried with front feet (or all feet on smaller dogs) off the ground puts thedog ina very pressure situation.
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We will have to agree to disagree.  In Ring, when a dog has problems in the bitework, the first thing people consider doing is moving them from the legs up into the chest.  If there was less pressure there, that wouldn't be the area the dog would be getting moved to.  I've seen many dogs over the years who wouldn't stick a leg bite, but would stick an upper bicep bite, and eventually, after a lot of training, building, etc were able to be moved into the legs and stay there also. 

A decoys is more limited in how much pressure they can put on an upper body dog, not less.  Their ability to come down over the dog, effectively hit the dog, use their hands, etc is much more limited. 



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I have a question for folks more experienced in ring than I: what are the requirements for the decoy to move INTO the dog? Are there any? This is once the dog is on the sleeve.
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There is no requirement, the decoy work in Ring isn't choreographed like Schutzhund.  The decoy can do whatever he feels is going to put the most pressure on the dog, wether that's a charge or something else is up to the decoy's individual style.


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I think we need more contributions from people who've actually done or are doing both? Anyone? Anyone?
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I have done both, and still am

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In my very short ring experience, the decoy tends to move lateral to the dog in an effort to esquive. Much less pressure than the courage test where if done properly the helper is running straight on at the dog, hopefully without a target till the last jump.
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The purpose of the esquive is to take away the dogs forward momentum, and set the dog up so it has to turn around and face a decoy who has set up a barrage and is coming at them.  It takes less courage for a dog to blast through a barrage, threat, etc when it's got 40-50 meters of speed built up coming down a field then it does when the dog turns around and it's right there, no time to build up speed.

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agree with you there hans , but dont you think the physical pressure of the decoy , be it in schh or especially in KNPV were they still hit the dog with a stick  , is harder on the dog than the actual impact of the stick