Cookie training vs Correction training... - Page 3

The push the butt trainer and the lure trainer are also saying "sit" when they push or lure. The smart pup is learning that sit means his owner will push his butt or lure him, he can just sorta sit back and enjoy the ride, and he will get treated. Sweet!

The positive trainer is not pairing the word up yet, as IF she says sit and the dog does not sit, then what has she just taught the dog - right, to ignore the command.

And on it goes.

At some point the lure and push butt trainers have to start fading out their "help" to the dog. The positive trainer has only to start adding the command to the correct action when the dog does it on its own.  The pure positive dog LEARNS to learn. They learn that THEY must do something - not rely on the owner to push, jerk or prode them into some position and then they will get rewarded. Makes it much clearer to the animal.  This is why positive trained dogs "throw out" behaviors and compulsion trained animals rarely do. They understand that THEY are trading actions for the reward.

I do want to clarify that a "deadhead" dog is REALLY tough to train in positive.  For this reason:  The way I train positive, the dog learns to give behaviors in exchange for rewards. Part of being a good positive trainer is building a STRONG desire for the reward, which in turn keeps the dog tuned into you, instead of the outside world which, with most trainers, is a lot more interesting!  I have a lot of people at Petco comment on my 5 and 6 month old pups who stand and WATCH ME the whole time we are talking,rather than sniffing new person, jumping about, because I have taught them I am more interesting than the environment. It is easy to do - but it does take a dog with some food or prey drive.

One last thing:  everyone has different goals. Someone may want very badly to score 100 in obedience. For me, as a breeder, it is more important that I produce dogs which possess the correct drives to be useful. By using positive training to shape and reinforce bahviors which are already present, I don't have to "force" the dog into doing work it should be able to do on its own.

If I had to force a dog, through compulsion, to retrieve, or to release on command, or to track, I would feel that dog had very poor genes at best.  Just my way of thinking. And its worked for me.

As to "compliance is not an option", well, that is true. I agree with you 100%!  But a dog is an animal, and animals F up. Just like us!  And I have YET to see ANY trainer, force or positive, whose dog does not F up. So neither method has a monopoly on producing 100% compliant dogs.  I can only say again, that in this area (WA, OR, ID) if you want consistancy, obedience, (on field and OFF) Shade's dogs are FAR AND AWAY better than anyone elses.  That's not just me, that's a matter of record.  So, I feel that says plenty.  :  )

That I've had the pleasure to watch, Shade's dogs are probably the most enjoyable, for sure.

Would you not agree that part of that "enjoyable" is the lack of stress and the fact that BOTH parties are having a blast?  : ) 

              Everyone... Thanks for the posts...I am taking it all in reading through the posts over,,and over again...There is tons of information in your posts.....I have a couple of questions for ya..

                 Mudwick...You mentioned "proofing" your dog..Could you expound of that post a little bit more.????


                 Diane....Does  "Shade"...have any training books available???

There are basically three key componants to training, in my own personal philosophy [which basically means not shit, since I've never titled a dog, btw].

Teach the dog.  Reward the behavior you want. What reinforcement is, is different to every dog.  Some dogs are easily motivated by food.  Others, the tug.  Others still are content with some very physical praise [mine can often be motivated best in this manner.]

Ignore the behaviors you don't want, in the learning phase.  Any reaction to a behavior, in the learning phase, can inadvertantly reinforce it.  No reaction is clearer to a dog in that stage, than a "negative" one.  You have to make it crystal clear what behavior you are asking for, by only responding to that behavior [and responding very positively, to build that positive association].

Once a dog has demonstrated clear understanding of a command, when he understands what you're asking, then he must do as you ask, every time you ask.  If he chooses not to, then there are consequences.  The level of correction depends on the infraction.  It should be strong enough that you aren't nagging the dog and teaching him to ignore corrections, and swift enough that the dog immediately associates the correction with the behavior you're correcting him for.  This requires a lot of forethought into the way the dog's mind works.

As an example, its not good enough to wait until the dog has already broken his down, to correct him.  The moment he shifts his weight, is when the correction should come.  It should be clear that it is the breaking of the down [which begins as he shifts his weight] not the coming towards you, not the re-down once he sees that you're not pleased, but the idea of breaking the down is what is "bad", and what he should not do.

You're painting a clear picture for the dog.
Its not enough to just paint white [100% positive] or just paint black [pure compulsion].  The dog needs both colors for the contrast, and the crystalline understanding of what the command means, and that it must be obeyed.

Shade's website:
www.shadesdogtraining.net/index.html

Yes, Diane, I know I omitted capturing.  I did so because it's not used as often as luring because it takes longer- to capture you have to always be ready, and when your dog lies down on his own you would mark the behavior and treat.  If you are holding a treat and the dog looks upward, you're using a lure, that's what it's called. Someone standing around until the dog sits on its own then capture it, simply takes too long.  Capturing would work for a hands-off method to teach something like "bow", by just click/reward when she stretched in the morning, pair the cue later.

However, there is no consequence to unwanted behaviors, other than "no reward" marker, say a trained dog is developing dog-aggression, or just displaying leash reactivty.  You tell him "sit-stay", another dog walks nearby and he lunges out barking and you cannot say "pfui" or reinforce the sit-stay with a correction.  I suppose you can do a gradient and stay below threshold, having the other dog approach from far away and rewarding your dog for the sit-stay, but if that doesn't work, then what.  Or your dog is super prey driven and lunges at someones long jacket, you could re-direct him if you had a tug, but if not you have no means to let him know it's wrong.  Marine mammals are wild, dogs live in our homes- You can't touch a dolphin, let alone discipline it. 
You raise a good point that they dog must have high motivation for the rewards, and that's why it works out for your performance-bred dogs.  Many dogs may be low-food motivation and almost no prey motivation.  So what is one to do, starve the dog for 2 days so it works for food?  I have seen a couple dogs get very pushy and even aggressive with food training, when the rewards are phased out.  They believe it's part of the system, and some do not like their food they "earned" being withheld.  The fundamental problem- never has the owner imposed their will upon the dog.  Everything was done on the dogs terms.  Now, when behavior problems happen, and the owner does try to repremand the dog and impose their will, they appear as the bully.

Another thing is the time it takes.  While you may not mind devoting a lot of time working on the behaviors you want, the average person is not, and IMO should not, need to take over a year to teach loose leash walking.  I've clients who've tried all-positive for 6 months to 3 years, and their dogs still don't heel.  They have done all the proper steps but what they really need is a pinch collar and light corrections to proof that behavior.  Proofing is making the behaviors reliable, so whatever you may run into, you always have a way to enforce your commands.  I also live where people are walking their dogs in the crowded city on a daily basis and they need to proof behaviors.  Can you train your dog all-positive then slap a pinch collar on and proof it, no that's unfair, it has to be introduced properly and as a clear system.

You don't take a dog who hasn't *learned* sit-stay around other dogs if he's dog reactive.

You make sure that the command is known well enough that a correction becomes appropriate.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing on much.
I guess just being a "pet" owner who happens to do Schutzhund, I'm willing to take the additional time.

      Mudwick....Thanks a TON...!!!!...I had that very thing happen today with Prince shifting his weight at the down. I hesitated to correct him because he did not actually get up. However, what you said makes very good sense...Ruger1