Calm bites on the sleeve? - Page 3

Many GSDs do herd.  [pic of mine, herding, below]

The style of herding seen in this country, today, differs dramatically from the style of herding seen during von Stephanitz's time.  He actually covers, at length, the social and pollitical impacts upon herding style, for example, herders could graze their sheep anywhere they wanted, without permission, provided they did not damage a farmer's crops.  This necessitated some very different herding styles to avoid conflict between the herder and the farmer.

Today's herding is radically different, in that, one can only graze their animals on land they have permission to graze on.

I agree with Sita, it's primarily genetic but can be improved or ruined through training. I've given a few dogs their first grips ever and they were full and hard, so that came from genetics, not training.

I've also wondered about how a dog's head is put together, and how that affects the bite. Dogs that I've decoyed that have large masses of muscle on each side of their jaw inside their mouth usually bite hard, as well as dogs with thick musclature on their head, a dog with a bit "split" down the center of it's skull because of muscle mass will be a strong biter, from a pressure standpoint. I've also noticed that some dogs open their mouths wider when coming in for a grip than others.  

It's easy as a decoy to look down the dog's mouth and see how they are constructed. Not sure if it's true but it's something I've thought about., how much is drive and character and how much is physique? This is not counting nerve of course, the dog with the 1/2 grip, pulling back because he wants to get away doesn't really factor into this equation.

The German style herding involved taking a full-mouth, firm grip of the sheep's rear leg, above the knee, nose-in to prevent damage to the udders. No nipping or biting.
In other words, the dog was supposed to grip the sheep's leg exactly as he is supposed to grip the sleeve.


I understand why that type of grip is desired for herding.  My point was that  I haven't seen a coorelation to how they bite in protection work, and how they bite in herding.  Most of my experience is with Malinois, but I have also watched some GSD , Rotts, Cattle Dogs, BCs (yes, BCs LOL) and other breeds do both bitework and herding, and didn't see a coorelation in those breeds either. 

Some are calm in both, some are "munchy" in both, and some are calm in one and munchy in the other.  But enough are calm in one and munchy/slashy in the other for me to think one style doesn't imply the other.

I don't know that one correlates to the other, either.

That was just the rationale for making it part of the test.

My experience with my dogs...in schH their grip is calm and firm perhaps it is the drive they are working in. 

On the suit or hidden sleeve they thrash more, perhaps more stimulated by the elevated percieved threat and pressure...but IMO is fight drive.

also when the decoy locks up they will dig in and get in a last thrash (andy back and forth...ema yanks) before they are outed

here some video's...see what you think (Slamdunc always love to get your OP)...Imo nothing wrong with nerves.

Andy SchH
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjIx1vboXMY

Andy Suitwork/hidden sleeve (watch the beginning mostly)
http://www.bojovnikak9.com/apps/videos/videos/show/3411113-andy-s-anthology

Ema K9 seminar (this was handler/team (how to work on the ground with a K9) training...I would have "trained" the dog more but didn't want to deviate from the "scheduled program")
http://www.bojovnikak9.com/apps/videos/videos/show/9993063-ema-k9-seminar

Ema SchH (don't have anything more recent edited and my computer is in the shop)
http://www.bojovnikak9.com/apps/videos/videos/show/4862872-ema-schh-aug-09

 What about a dog that when finding the decoy in the blind acts a bit confused, strolls away a bit and then return to the handler, who send the dog back and the dog then do a correct bark and hold and also the rest of the work? Is this always a "weak" dog or could it just be some confusion? It´s not so uncommon to also see some unfocused guading of the decoy in other sports, the dog may glance back at the handler or not have focus on the decoy every second, but is this mostly a training issue that are more important in SCH therefore people spend more time training this in the sport of SCH and not necessarily a dog that is unsure?

If its a new dog?  Its part the helper's fault, and part due to the dog not understanding the exercise.  He's used to being agitated.  There's no agitation in this exercise, so he's not quite sure how to respond.

Most of the time the dog glancing back at the handler in the blind is a handler conflict issue that has been *created* in training.
Too many call outs, the dog anticipates being called to heel out of the blind.

 No, not a new dog, dogs you see at competitions sometimes.

Kinda like I said before. Without seeing the dog on video or person, this is hard to read. Like Mudwick said, maybe the dog had a problem leaving the blind and got juiced the last two weeks before the trial. Did the dog leave the blind before the handler got there? Was the dog engaged and look fine until the handler got there? Here's a solution for you. Obviosly you know how to get to a trial. Why don't you go to a club and actually learn from people that are there and can explain things while it is happening. I am probably wrong, but my 7th sense is telling me you are playing around. Kinda like a newbie to ring, using ring terms trying to find out why sch is inferior.

Sam,
             That's not your seven sense, it's your 7th beer.  Don't start with
accusations, what have I told you about that.


Full, calm grip...............     3 stages


#1.................Right before the bite or grip

#2.............The bite and grip

#3...........maintaining the grip

You look at all 3 stages your dog takes, each is very important.

#1.......Dog should be coming in to the bite like a high powered magnet is pulling
him in with his body appearing relaxed and positioned .  In Fr  ring this is much more
dynamic, and requires a great deal of forethought on the dogs part because the decoys are very fast.
However Malindobe can attest to the fact the dogs appear calm relaxed just before the bite. Than 
the pressure from the decoy for the dog to give up the grip and release.

#2...........Some dogs take full grip back to the molars and clap down and thrash.  With a very hard
bite. Some dogs slip the bite and do not commit.

#3...........This is where the dog shows you it is in it for the full fight. Until he is outed.
Civil drive of cause as you all know is the ZONE in which the dog performs, from beginning to end.