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by Jagenstadt on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
Andreya, that's a real nice story and you tell it very well.
Please explain how it relates to breeding an untitled GSD dog.
What you seem to be describing is a scenario that takes place in an area where specific training is required to achieve specific results. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, Jed can certainly breed his Border Collie or Heeler or untitled mixed breed dog to Ellie Mae's Border Collie or Heeler or mixed breed untitled dog with the hopes of producing some awesome farm dogs that fit the needs of the locals.
Obviously the yuppie guy did not have a clue as to what he was purchasing in the first place and also did not have a clue as to how to acclimate the dog to it's new surroundings and as a result a good laugh was had by the hillbillies and a hard lesson was learned by the yuppie.
There are MANY untitled dogs of MANY different breeds that do very well in MANY different walks of life, that's a fact.
I don't see the correlation between this story and breeding untitled dogs, there must be a uniformed standard that is properly policed and followed to insure the correct advancement of ANY breed of dog.
"In a perfect world, Jagenstadt, I agree with you but strict compliance to those requirements is significantly more difficult here in the U.S. than it is in Germany where there is a club in virtually every small town. Also, as others have pointed out, sometimes those titles are not necessarily indicative of an individual's breedworthiness and simply seeing the dog work may or may not tell you what you need to know but it will never tell you as much as having worked with him/her yourself."
Contrary to what is often used as an excuse, there certainly are more Clubs in Germany but there is not one in every small town, A TOTAL FALACY!
MANY of the Germans will commute an hour or more to go to their Clubs to train, I know it for a fact, I've traveled with my friends in Germany and Denmark to train and both trips were over an hour each way. Where the German's do have the advantage is that there are more trials and shows for them to see and enter and in a closer proximity then here in the States. That can only be blamed on us, we have supported corrupt organizations such as UScA and WDA and WDCA for many years. We have quietly sat back and watched them systematically hamper our ability to have more Clubs and Trials available to us and all because of egos, corruption and the fulfillment of personal agendas, but forgive me, I digress, an altogether different topic.
I'm sorry to say that the traveling distance to Clubs to train doesn't hold water, it's just another excuse.
If you know anything about what the correct temperament of a GSD should be, and you have the knowledge and the eye to see what is genetic, or "real" about the dog or what is the result of poor training or excellent training then you CAN ascertain the working ability of a dog by seeing it perform on the field and perhaps spending some informal time with the dog. After all, that is why folks go to trails to observe the dogs to begin with. It is unrealistic to say that any of us knows everything in totality about what is behind a stud dog we use. That is why we have trials and shows and breed surveys to assist us in making our decisions.
Please explain how it relates to breeding an untitled GSD dog.
What you seem to be describing is a scenario that takes place in an area where specific training is required to achieve specific results. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, Jed can certainly breed his Border Collie or Heeler or untitled mixed breed dog to Ellie Mae's Border Collie or Heeler or mixed breed untitled dog with the hopes of producing some awesome farm dogs that fit the needs of the locals.
Obviously the yuppie guy did not have a clue as to what he was purchasing in the first place and also did not have a clue as to how to acclimate the dog to it's new surroundings and as a result a good laugh was had by the hillbillies and a hard lesson was learned by the yuppie.
There are MANY untitled dogs of MANY different breeds that do very well in MANY different walks of life, that's a fact.
I don't see the correlation between this story and breeding untitled dogs, there must be a uniformed standard that is properly policed and followed to insure the correct advancement of ANY breed of dog.
"In a perfect world, Jagenstadt, I agree with you but strict compliance to those requirements is significantly more difficult here in the U.S. than it is in Germany where there is a club in virtually every small town. Also, as others have pointed out, sometimes those titles are not necessarily indicative of an individual's breedworthiness and simply seeing the dog work may or may not tell you what you need to know but it will never tell you as much as having worked with him/her yourself."
Contrary to what is often used as an excuse, there certainly are more Clubs in Germany but there is not one in every small town, A TOTAL FALACY!
MANY of the Germans will commute an hour or more to go to their Clubs to train, I know it for a fact, I've traveled with my friends in Germany and Denmark to train and both trips were over an hour each way. Where the German's do have the advantage is that there are more trials and shows for them to see and enter and in a closer proximity then here in the States. That can only be blamed on us, we have supported corrupt organizations such as UScA and WDA and WDCA for many years. We have quietly sat back and watched them systematically hamper our ability to have more Clubs and Trials available to us and all because of egos, corruption and the fulfillment of personal agendas, but forgive me, I digress, an altogether different topic.
I'm sorry to say that the traveling distance to Clubs to train doesn't hold water, it's just another excuse.
If you know anything about what the correct temperament of a GSD should be, and you have the knowledge and the eye to see what is genetic, or "real" about the dog or what is the result of poor training or excellent training then you CAN ascertain the working ability of a dog by seeing it perform on the field and perhaps spending some informal time with the dog. After all, that is why folks go to trails to observe the dogs to begin with. It is unrealistic to say that any of us knows everything in totality about what is behind a stud dog we use. That is why we have trials and shows and breed surveys to assist us in making our decisions.
by Bob McKown on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
The most important thing in breeding the dog is (pause for effect) the dog. the least important thing about the dog is what is written about it.
The "Breed test" has been so wattered down by the show and go influence people (that it is no longer a test of real breeding worth).
Every dog that is bred should be worked and be able to show it,s physical qualities as well as nerve and structre. This is a working breed and should have a test to promote that. Until that happens the most important thing is the abality of the breeder to understand what there are breeding and why they are breeding and what there goal is for breeding Schutzhund titles are a good starting point. Show me the dog before you show me the paper.
Genetic issue testing is the first thing. Hips,Elbows,background of genetic issue are a minimum.
The "Breed test" has been so wattered down by the show and go influence people (that it is no longer a test of real breeding worth).
Every dog that is bred should be worked and be able to show it,s physical qualities as well as nerve and structre. This is a working breed and should have a test to promote that. Until that happens the most important thing is the abality of the breeder to understand what there are breeding and why they are breeding and what there goal is for breeding Schutzhund titles are a good starting point. Show me the dog before you show me the paper.
Genetic issue testing is the first thing. Hips,Elbows,background of genetic issue are a minimum.
by Adreya on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
If you don't understand how it relates to breeding titled or untitled dogs, I am afraid you already drank the koolade and I have nothing left to say to you. I suggest you reread Max's quote. Oh, and I am not a breeder nor do I plan to be. I also have admiration for people who title their dogs because it shows a lot of dedication; however, as a GSD owner, titles on dogs in a pedigree are not my sole criteria for purchasing a puppy.
by malndobe on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
I have a different POV on this then many GSD people probably will. But I'll state up front I'm a Malinois person, who mainly does French Ring.
In the Malinois, it's much more common for the females to not be titled, then titled. Especially in France and Belgium. The attitude of most breeders there is that a good female belongs in the whelping box, not on the trial field. Another common thought you will hear though is "I don't need to know if the female will work, I need to know if she's sound, stable, and if her pedigree matches well with the males". Not all breeders feel this way, but many do, especially in the more successful, "bigger name" kennels.
When I first got into Ring almost 20 years ago, I had females that I was training/trialing. And every judge I met from France, when they realized my dog was a female, asked me "why are you working a female". ALL of them. When I asked them "why not" they would look a little confused, think about it, and not have an answer for me. But they assumed my dogs were males, because that's what 99% of the dogs competing in France were, and were surprised to find they were females. There are more females being trialed now, but I'd say its still less then 5% in France. It is higher here in the US, but we have a different "dog culture" here. One influenced in part by the GSD/Schutzhund world.
Many of my competition dogs over the years have been females. Not because I feel they have to be titled to be bred, I've bred untitled females also, but because I can only own so many dogs, and so why not have 1 dog fill two purposes, competition and breeding. On the down side, because I've been busy training/trialing them, they haven't been bred as many times as I would have liked, limiting my options down the road when it comes to dogs for future generations. One of the top Ring dogs in the US right now is a female in my club, who is 5 years old now and has never been bred, because her owner is to busy training/trialing her to take time off for breeding. She may never be bred, for this reason.
I can understand the "dogs for breeding must be titled" concept when dealing with newbies. Requiring the dog to be titled forces people to take the time to really learn about their dog. But on the flip side, I see a lot of people adopt the attitude that after putting all that time, money and effort into titling the dog, they are darn sure going to breed it. Because after all, it titled, breed surveyed, etc so it must be worth breeding, since that's the "gold standard" for breeding, at least that's how it appears. When the person doing the breeding is someone who has been in the breed for many years, and does know how to read and evaluate a dog, I don't see that a title is going to make a difference. It's not like pups from Fifi pre-title are somehow going to be inferior to pups from FiFi after she's titled. But on the flip side, if more experienced people are breeding untitled dogs, it makes it hard to argue why newbies shouldn't be.
For me though, what it all comes down to in the end, is how the breeding practices effect the breed. In the Malinois it's common to breed untitled females, and I don't see that it has hurt the breed in any way. As a working breed it's still strong, so I really can't see the problem.
As an aside, I think someone mentioned "breeding to FCI standards" I don't think requiring a titled female is an FCI standard. It might be the rules for the registry in Germany, but it's not the rules in France or Belgium, which are also FCI countries. They do have some basic requirements for the dog to get breeding papers, but I believe it's along the lines of a temperament test and structural evaluation, not a SchI, FRI, BRIII, etc. title.
In the Malinois, it's much more common for the females to not be titled, then titled. Especially in France and Belgium. The attitude of most breeders there is that a good female belongs in the whelping box, not on the trial field. Another common thought you will hear though is "I don't need to know if the female will work, I need to know if she's sound, stable, and if her pedigree matches well with the males". Not all breeders feel this way, but many do, especially in the more successful, "bigger name" kennels.
When I first got into Ring almost 20 years ago, I had females that I was training/trialing. And every judge I met from France, when they realized my dog was a female, asked me "why are you working a female". ALL of them. When I asked them "why not" they would look a little confused, think about it, and not have an answer for me. But they assumed my dogs were males, because that's what 99% of the dogs competing in France were, and were surprised to find they were females. There are more females being trialed now, but I'd say its still less then 5% in France. It is higher here in the US, but we have a different "dog culture" here. One influenced in part by the GSD/Schutzhund world.
Many of my competition dogs over the years have been females. Not because I feel they have to be titled to be bred, I've bred untitled females also, but because I can only own so many dogs, and so why not have 1 dog fill two purposes, competition and breeding. On the down side, because I've been busy training/trialing them, they haven't been bred as many times as I would have liked, limiting my options down the road when it comes to dogs for future generations. One of the top Ring dogs in the US right now is a female in my club, who is 5 years old now and has never been bred, because her owner is to busy training/trialing her to take time off for breeding. She may never be bred, for this reason.
I can understand the "dogs for breeding must be titled" concept when dealing with newbies. Requiring the dog to be titled forces people to take the time to really learn about their dog. But on the flip side, I see a lot of people adopt the attitude that after putting all that time, money and effort into titling the dog, they are darn sure going to breed it. Because after all, it titled, breed surveyed, etc so it must be worth breeding, since that's the "gold standard" for breeding, at least that's how it appears. When the person doing the breeding is someone who has been in the breed for many years, and does know how to read and evaluate a dog, I don't see that a title is going to make a difference. It's not like pups from Fifi pre-title are somehow going to be inferior to pups from FiFi after she's titled. But on the flip side, if more experienced people are breeding untitled dogs, it makes it hard to argue why newbies shouldn't be.
For me though, what it all comes down to in the end, is how the breeding practices effect the breed. In the Malinois it's common to breed untitled females, and I don't see that it has hurt the breed in any way. As a working breed it's still strong, so I really can't see the problem.
As an aside, I think someone mentioned "breeding to FCI standards" I don't think requiring a titled female is an FCI standard. It might be the rules for the registry in Germany, but it's not the rules in France or Belgium, which are also FCI countries. They do have some basic requirements for the dog to get breeding papers, but I believe it's along the lines of a temperament test and structural evaluation, not a SchI, FRI, BRIII, etc. title.
by Jagenstadt on 16 July 2010 - 15:07
"If you don't understand how it relates to breeding titled or untitled dogs, I am afraid you already drank the koolade and I have nothing left to say to you. "
That's perfectly ok with me...sorry if I ruined your STORY.
"I suggest you reread Max's quote."
Why?...oh, forgive me, must be the Koolaid!
"Oh, and I am not a breeder nor do I plan to be. I also have admiration for people who title their dogs because it shows a lot of dedication; however, as a GSD owner, titles on dogs in a pedigree are not my sole criteria for purchasing a puppy."
That's great know!
That's perfectly ok with me...sorry if I ruined your STORY.
"I suggest you reread Max's quote."
Why?...oh, forgive me, must be the Koolaid!
"Oh, and I am not a breeder nor do I plan to be. I also have admiration for people who title their dogs because it shows a lot of dedication; however, as a GSD owner, titles on dogs in a pedigree are not my sole criteria for purchasing a puppy."
That's great know!
by GSDguy08 on 16 July 2010 - 15:07
Jagenstadt, it's not that I don't have time to train, to do this, do that. It's that my work schedule......work, not home life, or things needed to be done around home.....but the nights that the SchH clubs meet around here.....I work, every one of them. You're not buying that I don't have time? Well I don't think I said that I personally don't have the time to train, whelp a litter, this or that......it's that the SchH clubs meet when I'm at work, and theres no way around that. In an economy like this, should I quit my job when in this city the risk of not finding one is high........but just so I can go to the Schutzhund club when they meet. I was being sarcastic in the previous sentence. He did have foundation training as a puppy, before my work changed. Now we train with a police dog trainer.
I will say I do breed Huskies, I'm very active in the Husky world, and I have four of my own. That's a whole different story though, the show ring seems to have taken over in the Husky world though.
by Jagenstadt on 16 July 2010 - 15:07
"Jagenstadt, it's not that I don't have time to train, to do this, do that. It's that my work schedule......work, not home life, or things needed to be done around home.....but the nights that the SchH clubs meet around here.....I work, every one of them. You're not buying that I don't have time? Well I don't think I said that I personally don't have the time to train, whelp a litter, this or that......it's that the SchH clubs meet when I'm at work, and theres no way around that. In an economy like this, should I quit my job when in this city the risk of not finding one is high........but just so I can go to the Schutzhund club when they meet. "
Please don't misunderstand me, the unfortunate truth is that what you are experiencing is not unique in any way. So many others are in the same boat (myself included), it’s a sign of the times.
If I don't have the time to put a proper foundation on a puppy that I hold back from one of my breeding’s then I will re-home that puppy and try to give it the chance to reach it's full potential, I've done it on many occasions.
What I will NOT do is hold on to the puppy and have it sit in my house doing nothing and then when it's older just send it out for a "paper title" so I can breed it, and I will not use the excuse of not having enough time to title the dog with reasoning being that it’s ok, after all I’ve been breeding for so many years, why should my judgment be questioned. There has to be a rational and conscientious decision made or else in the end your only fooling yourself. We all have different standards that we hold ourselves to, arguments can be made for and against what we believe, let your conscience be your guide.
Please don't misunderstand me, the unfortunate truth is that what you are experiencing is not unique in any way. So many others are in the same boat (myself included), it’s a sign of the times.
If I don't have the time to put a proper foundation on a puppy that I hold back from one of my breeding’s then I will re-home that puppy and try to give it the chance to reach it's full potential, I've done it on many occasions.
What I will NOT do is hold on to the puppy and have it sit in my house doing nothing and then when it's older just send it out for a "paper title" so I can breed it, and I will not use the excuse of not having enough time to title the dog with reasoning being that it’s ok, after all I’ve been breeding for so many years, why should my judgment be questioned. There has to be a rational and conscientious decision made or else in the end your only fooling yourself. We all have different standards that we hold ourselves to, arguments can be made for and against what we believe, let your conscience be your guide.
by gouda on 16 July 2010 - 15:07
Hello everyone
I have a untitled female at home that now has had three litters.
This lovely female has never been off my property.
Why I bred her, is because of her temperment,and her awareness of any dangers on and around our property.
Her sire was an V1, ipo3, kkl1.
I also own her mother, SG1,CDX,TDX.
Back to the untitled female. I have two police officers that are two of my best friends.
They wanted a pup out of my female because of the way she carried and hadled her self ouround strangers and uncertain situations.Both of her pups turned out just like her,and are both working on the police k9 force.
Ive never bred more than 1 litter a year,not in it for the money. Also may I add that I had to remove the bitework photo"s of my wall,because some of my puppy buyers were offended and frightened by these. Well I have dogs from untitled bitches on the police force drug force a peremedics, and search and rescue.
I come to the conclusion that you posters hear are more concernd about bashing each other then the health of the breed.
My wife and I love our dogs,look after our dogs,evaluate,and do all the proper health testing before breeding. Havent done much Schutzhund the last three years,had a couple of hert attacks,and now waiting for a knee replacemen.
Did not breed my female this year because Im on the waiting list for my knee replacement. By the way iKON is also out of that untitled bitch,he can do a sch1 track,and the sch1 obedience routine, He will not be allowed to go on a sleeve till he earns his BH. Just tugs for him till then. He just turned a year old two days ago.
May God bless,and keep you all safe.
P.S. Im delighted that the oil leak situation is starting to improve. The Christians in our comunity have been praying day and nite,over the situation.
Look up your redemption is drawing near.
Your friend gouda
I have a untitled female at home that now has had three litters.
This lovely female has never been off my property.
Why I bred her, is because of her temperment,and her awareness of any dangers on and around our property.
Her sire was an V1, ipo3, kkl1.
I also own her mother, SG1,CDX,TDX.
Back to the untitled female. I have two police officers that are two of my best friends.
They wanted a pup out of my female because of the way she carried and hadled her self ouround strangers and uncertain situations.Both of her pups turned out just like her,and are both working on the police k9 force.
Ive never bred more than 1 litter a year,not in it for the money. Also may I add that I had to remove the bitework photo"s of my wall,because some of my puppy buyers were offended and frightened by these. Well I have dogs from untitled bitches on the police force drug force a peremedics, and search and rescue.
I come to the conclusion that you posters hear are more concernd about bashing each other then the health of the breed.
My wife and I love our dogs,look after our dogs,evaluate,and do all the proper health testing before breeding. Havent done much Schutzhund the last three years,had a couple of hert attacks,and now waiting for a knee replacemen.
Did not breed my female this year because Im on the waiting list for my knee replacement. By the way iKON is also out of that untitled bitch,he can do a sch1 track,and the sch1 obedience routine, He will not be allowed to go on a sleeve till he earns his BH. Just tugs for him till then. He just turned a year old two days ago.
May God bless,and keep you all safe.
P.S. Im delighted that the oil leak situation is starting to improve. The Christians in our comunity have been praying day and nite,over the situation.
Look up your redemption is drawing near.
Your friend gouda
by VonIsengard on 16 July 2010 - 16:07
Bloody hell, don't you hate when you hit a button and it deletes your whole response?
Anyway.
Here comes the excuse train rolling in, we hear these all the time: "I don't have time/club is too far" Then why do you have time to breed? I have two kids and a full time job. Right now I'm blessed with a trainer only 20 minutes away, but in my past driving over an hour was the norm and I've driven up to three hours each way to train. "Just because a dog is titled doesn't mean it's good for the breed" Unfortunate but true. Do your homework. Would you stop sending your kid to school because not every kid who graduates high school ends up smart and successful? "There a lot of great untitled dogs out there." Yup, and it's a bummer. Lot of great titled dogs, too. "I've seen tons of great puppies from untitled breedings" And it's a shame, isn't it, that they'll all sit around wasting their potential in pet homes because no serious working home will want one?
Thin, painfully predictable excuses.
I'm not flipping a 180 here, I still stand behind my original post. But I listed uncommon, extentuating circumstances they may blindside a good breeder who otherwise follows the standard. I wouldn't buy one for myself, but I still wouldn't judge them. Not all breeders have equal resources.
And yes, strict compliance is hard. That's the point. That's also the fun of it! I LOVE training, and I LOVE trialing in all venues. It's an awesome journey for my dog and me and at the end of it I get the added bonus of being able to see what my dog can produce.
Anyway.
Here comes the excuse train rolling in, we hear these all the time: "I don't have time/club is too far" Then why do you have time to breed? I have two kids and a full time job. Right now I'm blessed with a trainer only 20 minutes away, but in my past driving over an hour was the norm and I've driven up to three hours each way to train. "Just because a dog is titled doesn't mean it's good for the breed" Unfortunate but true. Do your homework. Would you stop sending your kid to school because not every kid who graduates high school ends up smart and successful? "There a lot of great untitled dogs out there." Yup, and it's a bummer. Lot of great titled dogs, too. "I've seen tons of great puppies from untitled breedings" And it's a shame, isn't it, that they'll all sit around wasting their potential in pet homes because no serious working home will want one?
Thin, painfully predictable excuses.
I'm not flipping a 180 here, I still stand behind my original post. But I listed uncommon, extentuating circumstances they may blindside a good breeder who otherwise follows the standard. I wouldn't buy one for myself, but I still wouldn't judge them. Not all breeders have equal resources.
And yes, strict compliance is hard. That's the point. That's also the fun of it! I LOVE training, and I LOVE trialing in all venues. It's an awesome journey for my dog and me and at the end of it I get the added bonus of being able to see what my dog can produce.
by VonIsengard on 16 July 2010 - 16:07
Oh my goodness, gouda, I wouldn't take down working photos for anything. If buyers were scared or offended by them I'd refer them to a nice golden retreiver breeder...
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