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by burtonbe on 09 July 2010 - 18:07
Yes, keeping the dog's feet off the helper is a 'Schutzhund thing'. And it is primarily done for the sake of points and not for some "real-life" advantage. Like pretty much anything in dog training, there are differing views on the subject.
Here are some stated reasoning for keeping the paws off the helper that I have heard:
Here are some stated reasoning for keeping the paws off the helper that I have heard:
- It is thought that by only hanging onto the helper with the grip that the grip will be more firm and calm. The idea is that if the dog has it's paws up on the helper it can safely chew and grip weakly without having to worry so much about losing the grip entirely. Hanging on by just the grip means that if the dog attempts to chew or weakly grip the sleeve, then he will eventually lose the grip. This causes the dog to adjust the grip less and to hold the grip firm naturally.
- It is also thought that paws on the helper can degrade the quality of the out after lockup. This is for multiple reasons, some of which being explained in item 1, but also because the dog feels more empowered. If the dog is really strong to begin with, this could be a good enough reason in the dog's mind to refuse to out entirely. I have seen this in practice many times.
- Sometimes, you can see in a trial a dog that has paws on the helper, outs the grip, but the paws stay on the helper. Points lost for molesting the helper during guarding.
- Some people think that paws on/off the helper will bleed over, good or bad, to other exercises. So for example, you let the dog put paws on the helper sometimes, then in a trial the dog puts paws on the helper during the H&B because the behavior 'bled over'. Conversly, a dog that has been tought to only touch the helper by biting on the sleeve will just be more 'clean' overall.
- Also, there are more 'advanced' topics on this I have heard. For example, not allowing the dog to paw you as a decoy is one of many ways for you to better dictate the terms and direction of the fight. Putting "pressure" on the dog so to speak by making it clear to him that he is not calling the shots and you are a not simply a punching bag but a formidable opponent.
by VomRuiz on 09 July 2010 - 19:07
Hey guys,
Thanks for all the advice (and being patient!) I do have to apologize for my piss poor descriptions of these situations. That's why I don't often post training questions, since I am so new at this I have a hard time describing situations and I don't mean to be frustrating with strangely worded or vague comments.
The paws on the helper, my dog does do this even after the helper stands still.
Jim, you mentioned different fighting syles. My dog grabs the sleeve and uses his paws to pull back, and usually he does the high pitched whine in between tugging. I don't know if that helps any or if it just adds confusion to my already confusing post. He also has to be choked off the sleeve more times than not as he more often than not won't Aus (I picture us failing our first attempt at our SchH I and big letters saying WOULD NOT OUT) So I have been working on that. Also, my breeder when I emailed him about this said the same as you, that the paws on can be good in the escape. But it's too hard to answer without seeing video or the dog and helper in person.
What I meant by the dog grabbing the sleeve before the helper wants him to... I am the post, yes. While the helper is walking/jogging past my dog he has grabbed the sleeve many times when the helper isn't ready (didn't want him to yet), so about half the time it's not a full grip. Then I have to get him off the sleeve and get him to re grip. When the helper is ready and my dog is ready, the sleeve is all the way in the back of my dog's mouth and very calm (he doesn't chew or mouth)
They helper has not mentioned how hard my dog bites. It looks pretty hard to me (haha!)
I have NO problems owning up to being the reason my dog being called dirty if it's my fault... And as I said I have made quite a few mistakes already with him being my first, so I'm sure a lot of it is ME. I'm hoping training almost every night with help my handling skills.
One last thing... Is it not a good idea to have the loop of my leash wrapped around my thumb and hand while I'm being a post? That is how they showed me how to properly hold the leash. I've been doing basic training on dogs for a long time and you never wrap the leash around your hand.
I just started training with a new group and haven't yet met the helper they use, but my friend raves about him as having been a National helper. I like the clubmembers and helper from my original club, but if the methods are going to cause more problems with my dogs than what I have already created being a novice and aloowing my dog to do as he pleased for for so long, well, I will have to completely switch clubs. Thank you guys again so much for your honest advice and opinions
I value it! .........Stacy
Thanks for all the advice (and being patient!) I do have to apologize for my piss poor descriptions of these situations. That's why I don't often post training questions, since I am so new at this I have a hard time describing situations and I don't mean to be frustrating with strangely worded or vague comments.
The paws on the helper, my dog does do this even after the helper stands still.
Jim, you mentioned different fighting syles. My dog grabs the sleeve and uses his paws to pull back, and usually he does the high pitched whine in between tugging. I don't know if that helps any or if it just adds confusion to my already confusing post. He also has to be choked off the sleeve more times than not as he more often than not won't Aus (I picture us failing our first attempt at our SchH I and big letters saying WOULD NOT OUT) So I have been working on that. Also, my breeder when I emailed him about this said the same as you, that the paws on can be good in the escape. But it's too hard to answer without seeing video or the dog and helper in person.
What I meant by the dog grabbing the sleeve before the helper wants him to... I am the post, yes. While the helper is walking/jogging past my dog he has grabbed the sleeve many times when the helper isn't ready (didn't want him to yet), so about half the time it's not a full grip. Then I have to get him off the sleeve and get him to re grip. When the helper is ready and my dog is ready, the sleeve is all the way in the back of my dog's mouth and very calm (he doesn't chew or mouth)
They helper has not mentioned how hard my dog bites. It looks pretty hard to me (haha!)
I have NO problems owning up to being the reason my dog being called dirty if it's my fault... And as I said I have made quite a few mistakes already with him being my first, so I'm sure a lot of it is ME. I'm hoping training almost every night with help my handling skills.
One last thing... Is it not a good idea to have the loop of my leash wrapped around my thumb and hand while I'm being a post? That is how they showed me how to properly hold the leash. I've been doing basic training on dogs for a long time and you never wrap the leash around your hand.
I just started training with a new group and haven't yet met the helper they use, but my friend raves about him as having been a National helper. I like the clubmembers and helper from my original club, but if the methods are going to cause more problems with my dogs than what I have already created being a novice and aloowing my dog to do as he pleased for for so long, well, I will have to completely switch clubs. Thank you guys again so much for your honest advice and opinions
I value it! .........Stacy
by Get A Real Dog on 09 July 2010 - 19:07
1) The feet on the helper thing is definatley a Sch thing. No other sport caresiff the feet are on the helper or not.
2) The dog getting "dirty" or getting to the sleeve. From what you describe i would not call that "dirty" it is very easy to figure out who's fault it is. If you are having touble holding the dog and allow the dog to move forward---your fault. If you are not allowing the dog to go forward---helpers fault.
Some concerns with some of the things you are describing. Esp the out. But i don't know who you are training with, hte history, style of training. or dogs temprament so can't really judge.
Some dogs do have different fighting styles, but it also has to do with training and temerament. IN GENERAL I find GSD's to be pullers and Sch trainers teach pulling The Sch sleeve kind of makes it impossible to keep pushing forward into the grip, it has not give and the dog can only go so far into the grip
. Most ring trainers encourage the dog to push. Some dogs use their feet to fight, sometimes they are not confident in their grip, and some times it is avoidance.
As in most instances you can not make blanket statements, To many variables
by Get A Real Dog on 09 July 2010 - 20:07
Just noticed this remark..........
Anyways, like I said there are multiple ways to look at it. You have ultimate say on how your dog is trained, but the helper doesn't have to choose to train your dog either and doesn't "owe" you or the dog anything unless you are paying for the training.
I would agree and disagree with this statement. In my club all of the people are "newbies" who have never handled a dog so in the beginning I have the ultimate say on how the dog is trained. Once they know the basics, I encourage peole to experiment and see what works for the dog. In that vein, yes the trainer does not have to choose to train the dog. I have kicked more people out of my club than I have in the club right now. But my club has Zero drama and everyone is improving.That's where I find my satisfaction in dog training.
However, any trainer or decoy does "owe" it to the dog and handler to do their very best, every time they work a dog, to bring out the best in the dog, whether someone is paying or not. Believe me though I know the frustrations of people who do not listen to their trainer. Dogs are easy to train, handlers not so much.
It's supposed to be about the dog, not ego or money.
Sorry to go off topic.
Anyways, like I said there are multiple ways to look at it. You have ultimate say on how your dog is trained, but the helper doesn't have to choose to train your dog either and doesn't "owe" you or the dog anything unless you are paying for the training.
I would agree and disagree with this statement. In my club all of the people are "newbies" who have never handled a dog so in the beginning I have the ultimate say on how the dog is trained. Once they know the basics, I encourage peole to experiment and see what works for the dog. In that vein, yes the trainer does not have to choose to train the dog. I have kicked more people out of my club than I have in the club right now. But my club has Zero drama and everyone is improving.That's where I find my satisfaction in dog training.
However, any trainer or decoy does "owe" it to the dog and handler to do their very best, every time they work a dog, to bring out the best in the dog, whether someone is paying or not. Believe me though I know the frustrations of people who do not listen to their trainer. Dogs are easy to train, handlers not so much.
It's supposed to be about the dog, not ego or money.
Sorry to go off topic.
by burtonbe on 09 July 2010 - 20:07
"However, any trainer or decoy does "owe" it to the dog and handler to do their very best, every time they work a dog, to bring out the best in the dog, whether someone is paying or not."
Of course if you choose to decoy someone's dog you do your best.
What I am saying is that the decoy isn't under any obligation to work your dog. Like I said the handler has ultimate say, but there are a lot of decoys training dogs out of the goodness of their hearts trying, like you say, to bring out the best in the dog using the training style they know.
Of course if you choose to decoy someone's dog you do your best.
What I am saying is that the decoy isn't under any obligation to work your dog. Like I said the handler has ultimate say, but there are a lot of decoys training dogs out of the goodness of their hearts trying, like you say, to bring out the best in the dog using the training style they know.
by Slamdunc on 09 July 2010 - 21:07
Stacy,
I agree with GARD and others who have posted. For me the paws are not an issue, except for the out. They must come off for the out and the guard. This is easy to fix.
What I meant by the dog grabbing the sleeve before the helper wants him to... I am the post, yes. While the helper is walking/jogging past my dog he has grabbed the sleeve many times when the helper isn't ready (didn't want him to yet), so about half the time it's not a full grip. Then I have to get him off the sleeve and get him to re grip. When the helper is ready and my dog is ready, the sleeve is all the way in the back of my dog's mouth and very calm (he doesn't chew or mouth)
I also still do SchH and decoy every weekend for SchH and work with new handlers. If you are the post, you must be exactly that a post. An immovable object that your dog is back tied to, only you are the post. It is common for new handlers to move as the decoy passes by and the dog pulls. When I decoy I try to get with inches of the dog or closer as I pass by to make the dog miss. It builds drive and frustration and when the dog does get the bite the strike and bite are much harder. However, if the handler moves one of two things happens: One, the dog gets a shallow bite as in your case. Or two, I get bit as I pass by and juke the dog. I don't like the second option very much and it is handler error.
If you do move and the dog gets a shallow grip, you can easily let the dog re grip and get a full grip. You do not take him off the sleeve to re grip, he does that himself (regrips) and the decoy can control it. This can become a big issue if you can not hold the dog, because he is able to pull you off balance. if this is the case either back tie the dog or have a third party hold the line so the dog can not lunge forward and get a shallow grip.
Regarding the out and choking or lifting the dog off the sleeve. If you tell the dog out or aus, he must out every time. There is no"out" one day and a choke off the next. Out means out. I would say that it is too early for the out and would recommend changing the command. This can be a huge problem later on. If your dog has already learned that "out" or "aus" means sometimes to out, you will have an issue. Your description of the SchH 1 may come true if you keep doing this. Never tell the dog out while you are lifting it off the sleeve and never repeat the command. Simply, work on the out. You will need a third party for this to do the corrections. If we trained together I would not allow you to tell the dog "out" until we have trained it or are ready to correct it. Please don't lift the dog up by the collar repeating "out, out out." If you say out; like any other command the dog that understands the command has 2 seconds to comply. If not you must be able to immediately and effectively correct the dog. This goes for every command. Don't repeat the command or the first command means nothing.
I agree with GARD and others who have posted. For me the paws are not an issue, except for the out. They must come off for the out and the guard. This is easy to fix.
What I meant by the dog grabbing the sleeve before the helper wants him to... I am the post, yes. While the helper is walking/jogging past my dog he has grabbed the sleeve many times when the helper isn't ready (didn't want him to yet), so about half the time it's not a full grip. Then I have to get him off the sleeve and get him to re grip. When the helper is ready and my dog is ready, the sleeve is all the way in the back of my dog's mouth and very calm (he doesn't chew or mouth)
I also still do SchH and decoy every weekend for SchH and work with new handlers. If you are the post, you must be exactly that a post. An immovable object that your dog is back tied to, only you are the post. It is common for new handlers to move as the decoy passes by and the dog pulls. When I decoy I try to get with inches of the dog or closer as I pass by to make the dog miss. It builds drive and frustration and when the dog does get the bite the strike and bite are much harder. However, if the handler moves one of two things happens: One, the dog gets a shallow bite as in your case. Or two, I get bit as I pass by and juke the dog. I don't like the second option very much and it is handler error.
If you do move and the dog gets a shallow grip, you can easily let the dog re grip and get a full grip. You do not take him off the sleeve to re grip, he does that himself (regrips) and the decoy can control it. This can become a big issue if you can not hold the dog, because he is able to pull you off balance. if this is the case either back tie the dog or have a third party hold the line so the dog can not lunge forward and get a shallow grip.
Regarding the out and choking or lifting the dog off the sleeve. If you tell the dog out or aus, he must out every time. There is no"out" one day and a choke off the next. Out means out. I would say that it is too early for the out and would recommend changing the command. This can be a huge problem later on. If your dog has already learned that "out" or "aus" means sometimes to out, you will have an issue. Your description of the SchH 1 may come true if you keep doing this. Never tell the dog out while you are lifting it off the sleeve and never repeat the command. Simply, work on the out. You will need a third party for this to do the corrections. If we trained together I would not allow you to tell the dog "out" until we have trained it or are ready to correct it. Please don't lift the dog up by the collar repeating "out, out out." If you say out; like any other command the dog that understands the command has 2 seconds to comply. If not you must be able to immediately and effectively correct the dog. This goes for every command. Don't repeat the command or the first command means nothing.
We call it teaching the dog to count by repeating commands: "sit, sit ,sit, or down, down I said lay down. or aus, aus aus" Once a dog understands a command it is said one time then it must be enforced. If you repeat commands the dog learns to ignore the first two or three commands.
Jim
by MarioF on 09 July 2010 - 21:07
Stacey how many training sessions does your dog have? I thought I saw you were going to school or graduating. Have you been going to training regularly?
Regards,
Mario
Regards,
Mario
by Slamdunc on 09 July 2010 - 21:07
continued..
This behavior of your dog getting a shallow grip is not "dirty" if the decoy is moving. The dog is supposed to bite and it is a timing issue between you and the decoy and you moving when pulled. I decoy with some people that have trouble handling their dog and get pulled forward. If I see this happening I will adjust my style and stay further back compensating for the handler movement. Some of the responsibility rests with the helper. He must make the right adjustments and communicate to you what is happening and what he is doing.
Regarding holding the leash, yes the thumb goes through the strap nad you close your hand on the leash. You do not wrap the leash around your wrist. With your thumb through the strap and the leash closed in your hand the dog can never pull the leash out of your hand. Your hand does not go through the strap only your thumb. You can either use two hands and bring your arms to your chest and plant your feet; or some will plant their strong hand with thumb through the strap on their hip and have the leash go around their body and grab the leash with their other hand near their other hip. Either method you must have your feet about shoulder width apart and firmly planted so you can not be pulled forward or backward.
Hope that helps.
Jim
This behavior of your dog getting a shallow grip is not "dirty" if the decoy is moving. The dog is supposed to bite and it is a timing issue between you and the decoy and you moving when pulled. I decoy with some people that have trouble handling their dog and get pulled forward. If I see this happening I will adjust my style and stay further back compensating for the handler movement. Some of the responsibility rests with the helper. He must make the right adjustments and communicate to you what is happening and what he is doing.
Regarding holding the leash, yes the thumb goes through the strap nad you close your hand on the leash. You do not wrap the leash around your wrist. With your thumb through the strap and the leash closed in your hand the dog can never pull the leash out of your hand. Your hand does not go through the strap only your thumb. You can either use two hands and bring your arms to your chest and plant your feet; or some will plant their strong hand with thumb through the strap on their hip and have the leash go around their body and grab the leash with their other hand near their other hip. Either method you must have your feet about shoulder width apart and firmly planted so you can not be pulled forward or backward.
Hope that helps.
Jim
by VomRuiz on 09 July 2010 - 21:07
Burtonbe,
Thanks for the post. You posted while I sat here for an hour trying to figure out to to word my last one so didn't see it :-)
I appreciate you taking the time to explain the "whys"
#2, refusing to out, is something we are having a problem with. Getting better but still a lot of work to be done. So perhaps that's one of the reasons the helper swats my dogs paws away.
GARD, both instances for my dog getting the sleeve have happened. I have had to apologize for not being a good post more than once. I know you've said more than once "posts don't move" :-) .... Other times I had a good hold on my dog and he has gotten a poor hold of the sleeve anyway. My dog is small (64 pounds) and not really that strong, but I am a small woman, so he is a good size for me, I think. But he is very sneaky (tries to steal tug from my back pocket for example) Also on a few occasions while drive building he has gotten my hands and my forearm hard last night, and I don't think they were all complete accidents or unintentional)
I had someone tell me recently (during the time I have been away from this original club) that the particular helper had screwed up their dog pretty bad, and it has taken years for the dog to break the bad habits he picked up, but she didn't go into details and I should have asked but didn't.
Mostly because the helper has been very patient with me and excellent with my dog (as far as making the sport enjoyable for my dog. He also never once hurt or mishandled my dog, and I have heard a lot of stories about aggressive helpers) I didn't know this person at all, and she didn't know me... so thought it odd and rude for her to say all that.
But it also planted that seed in my head.
I was warned before I chose a club that there are tons of people in Sch who are drama kings/queens and will talk crap, even make up lies about clubs/helpers/TDs..so I wasn't about to encourage anything if that was the case!!
Just wanted to mention, I was a paying member of the club, and the times after when I trained with them and wasn't a member, I still made a donation every time I went out.
Thanks for the post. You posted while I sat here for an hour trying to figure out to to word my last one so didn't see it :-)
I appreciate you taking the time to explain the "whys"
#2, refusing to out, is something we are having a problem with. Getting better but still a lot of work to be done. So perhaps that's one of the reasons the helper swats my dogs paws away.
GARD, both instances for my dog getting the sleeve have happened. I have had to apologize for not being a good post more than once. I know you've said more than once "posts don't move" :-) .... Other times I had a good hold on my dog and he has gotten a poor hold of the sleeve anyway. My dog is small (64 pounds) and not really that strong, but I am a small woman, so he is a good size for me, I think. But he is very sneaky (tries to steal tug from my back pocket for example) Also on a few occasions while drive building he has gotten my hands and my forearm hard last night, and I don't think they were all complete accidents or unintentional)
I had someone tell me recently (during the time I have been away from this original club) that the particular helper had screwed up their dog pretty bad, and it has taken years for the dog to break the bad habits he picked up, but she didn't go into details and I should have asked but didn't.
Mostly because the helper has been very patient with me and excellent with my dog (as far as making the sport enjoyable for my dog. He also never once hurt or mishandled my dog, and I have heard a lot of stories about aggressive helpers) I didn't know this person at all, and she didn't know me... so thought it odd and rude for her to say all that.
But it also planted that seed in my head.
I was warned before I chose a club that there are tons of people in Sch who are drama kings/queens and will talk crap, even make up lies about clubs/helpers/TDs..so I wasn't about to encourage anything if that was the case!!
Just wanted to mention, I was a paying member of the club, and the times after when I trained with them and wasn't a member, I still made a donation every time I went out.
by VomRuiz on 09 July 2010 - 21:07
There were posts in between my last one, again since I take so long to write.
Jim your post was very helpful! Thank you I will go with your advice.
I am guilty of repeating commands and also double commands (Fuss then kissy noise)
(again, I am working on it) I hate confusing my dog.
Mario,
I am not going to a school or graduating...
I went to training regularly (twice a week) for about four months, then required surgery which put us out of commission for about three months or so and we just started up again (with a club.) So no, for the last few months training has not been regular. I only worked on obedience and drive building at home while we were unable to go out for training. Of course my dog listens well at home, but the training field is another story. Now I am trying to get out and train for an hour every night.
Stacy
Jim your post was very helpful! Thank you I will go with your advice.
I am guilty of repeating commands and also double commands (Fuss then kissy noise)
(again, I am working on it) I hate confusing my dog.
Mario,
I am not going to a school or graduating...
I went to training regularly (twice a week) for about four months, then required surgery which put us out of commission for about three months or so and we just started up again (with a club.) So no, for the last few months training has not been regular. I only worked on obedience and drive building at home while we were unable to go out for training. Of course my dog listens well at home, but the training field is another story. Now I am trying to get out and train for an hour every night.
Stacy
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