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by steve1 on 17 March 2010 - 09:03
Abhay
You are talking about Racing pigeons and There is a little difference to them and Dogs Firstly you can have Inbreeding , Line Breeding and Cross Breeding, If you go the route of crossbreeding you will come to the end in a very short space of time regards Quality you have developed in the family regarding Structure, Feather quality most important in Pigeons, Genes and racing ability all of these points will be affected by continuous cross breeding
Only by a certain amount of Inbreeding and certainly line breeding can a fancier stay at the top of the tree,
Personally i have done all three, But how i work it is to use a common base and have three lines going back to that common base this way i can line breed or on the occasion inbreed,
My present Family is now 21 years in the making, I started with very inbred base Pigeons 5 in all from at least 5 generations of close inbreeding and line breeding but these pigeons were selected rigorously through performace and the physical side, from those i then bought in a branch of that family developed by another fancier with a slight variation of blood of another family, but still an inbred one these were crossed to gether, selection was severe it still is, from there i built three lines going back to a common ancestors, Males, On occasions 2 pigeons to be precise in 21 years i bought in a complete Cross but each time that cross was a Female but she was a cross from an inbred family of pigeons but of a totally different line than my own, so i bought it in it was tried and the cross then wiped out meaning it was not allowed to dictate any line of the family, so there fore i developed a family based on the Paternal Line, Male Line
The Progeny of this cross is called an Hybrid Cross because it came from two inbred families not one of a cross bred product from ether side. This in effect gives the blood a boost
Another way is to have a Champion Racer of a long established family then pair it to 2 or 3 unrelated Producer hens all unrelated to each other and to the male, you then test out the young and mate the best daughters back to the father, then you develop on from there, but testing must be severe
Dogs, Line breeding is okay and if you want to keep the top traits then you have to do some of that, you can go on for quite a time i would think, but it is not so easy as pigeons for you cannot cull the same with dogs if you see blatant faults which may come out in a few Pups and if sold as pets you cannot monitor there well fare and will never know if they are bred from in the future which we know happens but not to the betterment of the breed , with dogs you do not have the control that i have with the pigeons, in as much with Dogs it is more complicated for with pigeons they are worked in a different way most times if they are not up to the mark and are losing the traits or show any signs of weakness you have worked for they are disposed of humanly and quickly or if they are tested and found wanting then they are lost in a race but my family is now such that i rarely have to dispose of anything due to what i call faults only the weak young bird of a pair on the occasion which will happen in the nest whist growing
With Dogs you cannot go down that route so it is more complicated in that respect
After 60 years of breeding and racing pigeons at the highest level of competition i am still learning, and i guess i always will till i call it a day the same amount of time spent with different breeds of dogs but not with the breeding side of those not once in 60 years of owning them have i ever bred a litter of pups, but it is not rocket science but if anyone knows a bit about genetics's then things should work out okay,
Steve1
You are talking about Racing pigeons and There is a little difference to them and Dogs Firstly you can have Inbreeding , Line Breeding and Cross Breeding, If you go the route of crossbreeding you will come to the end in a very short space of time regards Quality you have developed in the family regarding Structure, Feather quality most important in Pigeons, Genes and racing ability all of these points will be affected by continuous cross breeding
Only by a certain amount of Inbreeding and certainly line breeding can a fancier stay at the top of the tree,
Personally i have done all three, But how i work it is to use a common base and have three lines going back to that common base this way i can line breed or on the occasion inbreed,
My present Family is now 21 years in the making, I started with very inbred base Pigeons 5 in all from at least 5 generations of close inbreeding and line breeding but these pigeons were selected rigorously through performace and the physical side, from those i then bought in a branch of that family developed by another fancier with a slight variation of blood of another family, but still an inbred one these were crossed to gether, selection was severe it still is, from there i built three lines going back to a common ancestors, Males, On occasions 2 pigeons to be precise in 21 years i bought in a complete Cross but each time that cross was a Female but she was a cross from an inbred family of pigeons but of a totally different line than my own, so i bought it in it was tried and the cross then wiped out meaning it was not allowed to dictate any line of the family, so there fore i developed a family based on the Paternal Line, Male Line
The Progeny of this cross is called an Hybrid Cross because it came from two inbred families not one of a cross bred product from ether side. This in effect gives the blood a boost
Another way is to have a Champion Racer of a long established family then pair it to 2 or 3 unrelated Producer hens all unrelated to each other and to the male, you then test out the young and mate the best daughters back to the father, then you develop on from there, but testing must be severe
Dogs, Line breeding is okay and if you want to keep the top traits then you have to do some of that, you can go on for quite a time i would think, but it is not so easy as pigeons for you cannot cull the same with dogs if you see blatant faults which may come out in a few Pups and if sold as pets you cannot monitor there well fare and will never know if they are bred from in the future which we know happens but not to the betterment of the breed , with dogs you do not have the control that i have with the pigeons, in as much with Dogs it is more complicated for with pigeons they are worked in a different way most times if they are not up to the mark and are losing the traits or show any signs of weakness you have worked for they are disposed of humanly and quickly or if they are tested and found wanting then they are lost in a race but my family is now such that i rarely have to dispose of anything due to what i call faults only the weak young bird of a pair on the occasion which will happen in the nest whist growing
With Dogs you cannot go down that route so it is more complicated in that respect
After 60 years of breeding and racing pigeons at the highest level of competition i am still learning, and i guess i always will till i call it a day the same amount of time spent with different breeds of dogs but not with the breeding side of those not once in 60 years of owning them have i ever bred a litter of pups, but it is not rocket science but if anyone knows a bit about genetics's then things should work out okay,
Steve1
by steve1 on 17 March 2010 - 09:03
Continued from Above
I was lucky enough to have a chance to pick out the Father of my Izzy, I knew which Female i wanted as her mother, so the way i went about picking out the suitable Father for Izzy was much the same as i go about selecting the pigeon matings so really it was a very nice and interesting thing to do seeing it was my first ever time in 60 years with keeping dogs, and i throughly enjoyed doing it,
But only time will tell if i was right in my selection The crunch will start in about 5 months time, Izzy will then be just 15 months old and just old enough to take her BH, i fully intend to see she is ready at that time to go for it, In the meantime she will be training for her ScH1, and i am starting to take her to a Show Class Club once a week to learn to be a Lady and get a grading of some sort she started that last week and it was a laugh, but due to her going away she missed last Monday so back this next week
Once her BH is done her AD then we go on from there, But the interesting thing is some of her litter mates are in the USA and another brother in Belgium so how they go on in there irrespective lives whatever there owners choose for them is very important how they make out, Plus there was a second same way bred Litter afterwards, The Breeder was so pleased with the Breeding he repeated it, For he is one of the very best breeders around in Europe and for him to do that was a feather in my Cap so to speak
Steve1
I was lucky enough to have a chance to pick out the Father of my Izzy, I knew which Female i wanted as her mother, so the way i went about picking out the suitable Father for Izzy was much the same as i go about selecting the pigeon matings so really it was a very nice and interesting thing to do seeing it was my first ever time in 60 years with keeping dogs, and i throughly enjoyed doing it,
But only time will tell if i was right in my selection The crunch will start in about 5 months time, Izzy will then be just 15 months old and just old enough to take her BH, i fully intend to see she is ready at that time to go for it, In the meantime she will be training for her ScH1, and i am starting to take her to a Show Class Club once a week to learn to be a Lady and get a grading of some sort she started that last week and it was a laugh, but due to her going away she missed last Monday so back this next week
Once her BH is done her AD then we go on from there, But the interesting thing is some of her litter mates are in the USA and another brother in Belgium so how they go on in there irrespective lives whatever there owners choose for them is very important how they make out, Plus there was a second same way bred Litter afterwards, The Breeder was so pleased with the Breeding he repeated it, For he is one of the very best breeders around in Europe and for him to do that was a feather in my Cap so to speak
Steve1
by DDR-DSH on 17 March 2010 - 11:03
I liked the story about Biff..
Many years ago, a gun dog trainer was looking for a GSD. He called and we talked for a while on this topic. He raised "Poodle Pointers" (???), and I guess there are not many of them, so they are all marrying each other's first cousins. He told me that he had never seen so many outcrossed pedigrees as he saw with GSDs. He could not understand why. He said that it was very common to inbreed or close linebreed with gun dog breeds.
I have tried it, before, and did not get good luck from it, overall. I think it depends what is behind your dogs. Because we have done so little close breeding, this could be why there are so many bad recessive genes in the background of our dogs. We never really weeded them out. They still lurk in the background. Recessives only express themselves if the same gene is in both parents. If there is a bad recessive gene behind our dog, we can sidestep it very often by outcrossing. Very often we get it, anyway, because all of these dogs go back to a handful of founding dogs, 100 years ago.
If you have bad recessive genes behind your dog, you will really bring it to the surface by inbreeding. At that point, you can try to select the best and go again one more time. This is what they say, but nobody does it. If you can pull it off and have good results, no problems, then you are very fortunate, for you have a very good bloodline. But, this method requires absolute vigilance and integrity. There is no cheating. You will pay for every wrong decision you make, down the line.
Many (if not most) wild species are actually very inbred.. That is to say that they are all as a group highly specialized and descended from one very successful individual who was a variant that adapted well and passed this trait on. A new trait which never appeared before and is dominant (passed to offspring, consistently) is a mutation. All living cheetahs go to the same individual a long time ago and have a very narrow gene pool.
Obviously, mixed breed dogs have illnesses and genetic disorders, too. Go to any vet's office and sit in the waiting room, and you will see them coming in. If outcross matings were the panacea to health and mental disorders, humans would be paragons of health and virtue. Obviously, this is not the case. So, inbreeding is neither good nor bad.. It is what you make of it.
Many years ago, a gun dog trainer was looking for a GSD. He called and we talked for a while on this topic. He raised "Poodle Pointers" (???), and I guess there are not many of them, so they are all marrying each other's first cousins. He told me that he had never seen so many outcrossed pedigrees as he saw with GSDs. He could not understand why. He said that it was very common to inbreed or close linebreed with gun dog breeds.
I have tried it, before, and did not get good luck from it, overall. I think it depends what is behind your dogs. Because we have done so little close breeding, this could be why there are so many bad recessive genes in the background of our dogs. We never really weeded them out. They still lurk in the background. Recessives only express themselves if the same gene is in both parents. If there is a bad recessive gene behind our dog, we can sidestep it very often by outcrossing. Very often we get it, anyway, because all of these dogs go back to a handful of founding dogs, 100 years ago.
If you have bad recessive genes behind your dog, you will really bring it to the surface by inbreeding. At that point, you can try to select the best and go again one more time. This is what they say, but nobody does it. If you can pull it off and have good results, no problems, then you are very fortunate, for you have a very good bloodline. But, this method requires absolute vigilance and integrity. There is no cheating. You will pay for every wrong decision you make, down the line.
Many (if not most) wild species are actually very inbred.. That is to say that they are all as a group highly specialized and descended from one very successful individual who was a variant that adapted well and passed this trait on. A new trait which never appeared before and is dominant (passed to offspring, consistently) is a mutation. All living cheetahs go to the same individual a long time ago and have a very narrow gene pool.
Obviously, mixed breed dogs have illnesses and genetic disorders, too. Go to any vet's office and sit in the waiting room, and you will see them coming in. If outcross matings were the panacea to health and mental disorders, humans would be paragons of health and virtue. Obviously, this is not the case. So, inbreeding is neither good nor bad.. It is what you make of it.
by darylehret on 17 March 2010 - 11:03
DDR-DSH, it's encouraging to read when someone gets it like you do. As a performance dog, Asko is without question one of the recent 'greats', but I always had a question about his ability to produce himself, meaning his prepotence. But when you find a dog like this, that's when you should be testing the grounds by developing a prepotent producer of his phenotype, by combining the most exemplary examples of his offspring that are like him, and whose genotype is composed from his phenotype.
by Gustav on 17 March 2010 - 12:03
In my post, I said I would do a 2-2 inbreeding on Asko....now 2-2 is different than father to daughter. And the differences are why I said 2-2. Another reason I would do a 2-2 on Asko is that he has enough breedings/progeny on ground to give an astute breeder vast insight to his strengths, weaknesses, and dominants, and recessives. Also, I would do this to acheive a certain place with the results to THEN be prepared to go in a direction with the results. Dogs like Bernd v Lierberg, Mink v Wittfield, and Nick Heil....., have done this type of breeding to produce dogs that are having good impact on the breed. But let me add this component, 1) this type of breeding should be done by the very knowledgeable who have long term knowledge of the dog and its production, 2) this type of breeding should be part of an overall plan to go from there in a direction that will use the benefits of the creation but not carry it too far. Absolute positions are seldom a position for me in living organisms because of the variance in specimens. JMO
by B.Andersen on 17 March 2010 - 22:03
I agree a 2 on 2 half brother to half sister if the dog was perfect might work better to do a 2 on 3 imo or look for someone that has done a 4 on 3 and see the results.
by olskoolgsds on 18 March 2010 - 03:03
von sprengkraft wrote, "Everything would be magified, be it good or bad". This says it all. Way too deep a subject to have a simple answer to. IMO it must be left to those that have incredible knowledge on lines and all issues, health, temperament etc. etc. have an endless amount of first hand info on all dogs behind them, be willing to cull, have the time and money to wait, wait and wait for final results down the road, patients, money and endless time. Impecable charactor, integrity and the desire for excellence but the willingness to accept defeat and admit it, are a few of the basic principles necessary. IMO In breeding
is not bad in itself, just 1000 times more risky and the potential damaged results may show up years later. Results are most likely to be catastrophic, but on that one in a thousand in the hands of a few dedicated and knowledgeable soles, it can establish type in a line that is greatly needed. It can produce a Ferrari.
PS. Abhay, I researched those lines on the Dobie, and I think you are right. I sleep at night with full gear on now. I'm not going to have my throat torn apart in my sleep. Thanks for the tip.
is not bad in itself, just 1000 times more risky and the potential damaged results may show up years later. Results are most likely to be catastrophic, but on that one in a thousand in the hands of a few dedicated and knowledgeable soles, it can establish type in a line that is greatly needed. It can produce a Ferrari.
PS. Abhay, I researched those lines on the Dobie, and I think you are right. I sleep at night with full gear on now. I'm not going to have my throat torn apart in my sleep. Thanks for the tip.
by leciesters doghandler on 18 March 2010 - 21:03
my bitch mated with her son( i didnt mean for it to happen read my other thread) the pups are now nearly 3 weeks old and looking brilliant im against inbreeding and dont know much about it thats y i asked on here to learn if someone can tell me how to post pics ill post pics of the pupp on here
clint
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