tracking/trailing - Page 3

Moons,

I track/trail for a profession. So I have a descent understanding of what going on. These are more of retoracle questions than truely needing help but information is always helpful so i like to get things like this started.
 

what i have written-

i asked how do you guys teach a dog to search a given area for target odor to find the trail.

Jim provided an aswer.

Then I asked him how the dog makes the correlation from the basic training advice jim gave to actually putting it to use on the field. without all the ques the dog will have in the practice scenario we both use. What is he doing to help the dog make the jump from being agitted and finding a fleeing victim to coming out of the truck and being told to find designated scent from article in the given area.

let me see if i can pose this a little better-



you get a call. he was last seen fleeing child through the neighbor hood. you arrive say 3-6 hours after this guy has ran. there is 600ft between these buildings. you bring your dog out and scent him up- how are you teaching him to search that 600ft to find the initial trail.



I understand the jump and runs- run aways- trailing- and dogs natural ability to track forwards. I also have a routine. Im a vest guy. when i pull the 33ft lead or vest out mine are jumping on the tail gate waiting for me to put it on to work.
 

im with you on all of this so far. I am just curious where the dog makes the equation from the jump and run to finding the target odor in the given area. How are you breaching that gap between scenarios? because in the training scenario you give the dog will have a scent cone(air) and footstep track they can follow from the start point. How do they make the equation to when they dont have a starting point of scent to follow and have to seek it out.

Jim I can see what Im asking in my head just not sure i can get it on paper.

Sounds like a plan,
Happy Trails.

Moons.

Yoshy,
We start with the agitation and the decoy running, while hiding the dog for the first few sessions.  This progresses to the scent article being left on the scent of a building and the track layer walks away down the sidewalk.  The handler comes to the starting area some time later and is pointed to the scent article no direction of travel is given.  The dog works it out on his own.  Next we start in a neighborhood, with no scent article and a scent pad or starting point.  We start the dogs from a given location.  Our track layers do not scuff the ground or walk unusually heavy.  I will also go to neighborhoods or apartment complexes and track people getting off buses or walking down the street and walking through neighborhoods.  I will have a second person follow the subject so I do not know where the track goes than start the dog.  I think we have discussed this before.

How do we make the jump, you ask?  We start teaching the dogs to footstep track, then area searching and air scenting.  Then we progress to scent discrimination tracking and hard surface tracking.  So, our dogs have a good foundation in tracking and are highly motivated to track. 

Given your scenario, i would bring the dog between the buildings and command track.  The dog will search on his own to find the track or air scent.  On a 6 hour old track usually the ground disturbance will be stronger.  We never start our dog at a flag or use a scent pad once the dog is advanced in training.  So, the dog knows to search for the scent and will take off when he hits it.  It is just varied training and the dogs learn to work somewhat independently.  90% of our tracks start with no set starting point just a general area to start searching and go from there. 

The dog needs to learn to work to find the scent and the track.  I will let the dog cast in the area until it picks up the track, sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't.  Part of it is my checking and directing the dog to search certain areas.  I have done 6 hour old tracks and given the right conditions a properly trained dog can do it fairly well. 

Hope that makes sense,

Jim

For your work you must have a dog who has strong desire to hunt and have high prey drive. That is easily tested before you purchase the dog. 
Here are the steps. Do each step until you know the dog is confident doing it and never less then 5 days before you go to next step. Do no more then 3 scenario per day. Do not rush):
1. Dog is  tracking you,  seeing you to hide. (pup is held by a stranger). Reward : You prey play with the dog after he finds you. 
2.. same as 1. but the track is longer pup/dog does not see you hide. Reward same as 1.
3. Hide with a 1 stranger. 2nd stranger holds the dog. Reward : 1st Stranger prey play with the dog after find. 
4. You hold the dog. Stranger alone hides in line of the sight.: Reward same as 2. 
5.extend the distance.
6. extend the time when the dog is released on the track,  but the dog still see the stranger leaving. Start introducing scent article.
7.Same set up  shortly (5 minutes at most) after you do 6. but dog does not see the "victim to leave". Use scent article.
8. next day repeat  6.
9. short time  later after 8 repeat the scenario   8 but now with different "victim", use  scent article 
10. Next day use same scenario as 9. in the same place and different "victim"  use  scent article.
11. Next day use different place and different "victim". Scent article.
12. Next day 2 different track layers. Let them go in two different directions use scent article of one of them .  If the dog goes on wrong  track  correct hi  gently and try again. If he chooses proper track say "good boy". If he repeats the same mistake go to earlier point. 
 Off course it goes without saying that the dog gets rewarded after each find with his favored motivation.  Prey toy is the best acceptable reward for S&R.
However the bite is the best for unfriendly search training  and it is much stronger reward then prey toy. Real bite is the best:)>Thus some trainers train the dog to bit sleeve on the end of the track with the understanding that the S&R tracking will be done on leash and the real victim will not have sleeve. FEMA frowns on this training method for S&R purposes,...needles to say.:))(( 
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 

I can see why traditional SAR doesn't like the sleeve haha. I do protection with the my boy but he has great turn on turn off. I just haven't attempted nor want to combine the two.

I see in this method you are allowing the dog to use all of his senses to find the end of the trail or victim at will.

curious to why you would not distinguish out footstep tracking/ air scenting/ area searching/ etc.......?????????


As I have always started with the fleeing victims to start to make it fun, engage there nose and build drive for the work.
 
I have previously went into footstep tracking very quickly right after for the true foundation work and the air scenting second.
Do you think Im wrong for this Prager?

If you care only about a results and not titles, lawyers, FIMA , policies and so on, then do not force the dog to do any specific type of nose  work. Tracking, trailing, air scentig. He knows best what to do. If you know what to do better then he does, then  why would you  need a dog. But I do not care how the dog finds as long as he finds. Sight , hearing , smell which consists of  tracking, trailing, air scenting.
Just make sure that he uses his nose and not his eyes when  it is beneficial to him to use a nose,... as I stated in my first post here.
But there is a conundrum. Lawyers of Fema in their infinite wisdom determined that your dog needs to certify either in tracking or air scenting and must do either but not both! Go figure.!!
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Hans,

Hope you realize i wasn't contradicting or undermining your post in anyway. Just being inquisitory.

I definitely understand it is the one thing the dogs definitely knows better than us.

There are definitely way to many politics involved in SAR. I placed a foster with a SAR handler and hung around for a while. I was amazed at how faddish and political there organization was. But thats neither here nor there.

Thanks to both you and jim for some informative posts. 

 

 

No! I did not think that you are contradicting me at all. :))) It was just a rhetorical question. One more thing I always add to a student of S&R or any tracking and detection. Just because you are using dog does not mean that you should not look yourself.
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Yoshy,

I may just be muddying up the waters here but I'll give a few pointers in how I am training my girl to track for SchH. 

We start our dogs at a very young age with a "scent pad" where we have marked off a 4ft sq area on grass.  In that area we scuff the grass and dirt and drop a generous amount of small morsels of hotdogs or treats.  We introduce the pup to the area with the command Suk and if needed use a finger to get him to put his nose down and trail that finger to a reward.  Soon the pup is plowing through the scent pad and gobbling up the treats.  You do this for a few times then start with the pad and leave a short trail going away from the start area.  Sometimes you have to encourage him to leave the pad and follow the track out. 

As the dog gets better at finding treats and keeping the nose down you shrink the pad down to a triangle about shoulder width & pointing towards a track that gets longer and has a turn. At this point we keep the dog on a short leash that runs between his front legs to help steer him and to keep his nose down.  When the dog "gets it" you can start using a longer leash.  I always scuff the turn area well and any area where I am dropping a treat.  Depending on how food driven your dog is, he should start blowing by most of the treats as he learns the idea is to follow the track and find the reward at the end.  I use a ball on a rope at the end. 

We also use small articles for the dog to locate and indicate the article's location by downing on it.  I trained my girl on articles in the house.  I trained her how to locate an article and down on it by taking her out of the room, laying the articles down on a small treat and then bringing her into the room with the command "Touch".  As I point at the article she noses it out of the way for the reward.  Soon I can tell her to touch and she will put her nose on it and I reward her with a treat.  Once she has that figured out I start giving the command "Down - Touch" and she puts it together and complies.  Out on the track I place treats under the articles and as she finds them she downs and flips the article over to get to the treat.  I keep her in the down until I have retrieved the article and then give her the command to resume "Suk".  When she has located all three articles, the third being the end of the track I throw her ball and we have a bit of tug with it for a job well done.  The articles are small pieces of wood, carpet and leather.  At first the dog learns to follow your scent.  Later you have someone else lay the track. 

Hope this helps answer your question.
Deb