Cadaver Dogs Unreliable? - Page 3

Hi Jayne 241...There are two cases here the Anthony case . In the Anthony case the child has been found...dead squirrels and Pizzas are to explain the odour in the car.......The other case dirty nappies and accusing Police of planting DNA in the car.

Martin grimes explains that his two dogs Eddie and Keela...one only reacts to human blood and the other reacts only to human cadaver. They are two of the highest trained dogs in England.



Many find the reaction of the parents odd, rather than asking when your child is missing how cadaver came to be in your car the parents can explain it by the dogs being 'Unreliable'.

A Cadaver dog would be of no use if it was distracted by a dirty nappy and spilt fish oil.

"A Cadaver dog would be of no use if it was distracted by a dirty nappy and spilt fish oil."

I totally agree.  I didn't mean it as "Gee, I wonder if they will be distracted, why don't you try them and see?"  I know the dogs are trained on different things, even to be able to distinguish between human remains and animal remains; certainly to distinguish between human remains and poopy.

I meant it as evidence, proof.

The parents (and the defense, presumably) are saying the dogs are unreliable.  The trainer, the police, the prosecuting attorney, etc., say the dogs are reliable.  Voila, demonstrate it.

Demos are conducted all the time.  It should be easy enough to set up a demo for the particular excuses that either of the two cases is presenting.

Hi Jayne, sadly without forensics to back it up the dogs and I believe them 100% cannot help in this case. I just needed to know for my own peace of mind. I found it impossible for two dogs to pinpoint cadaver in several places  all with connections to the parents, and be wrong. These dogs have an amazing reputation. Without the childs body it is hard to prove that she is dead. The parents insist she is alive and has been abducted. The case has now been shelved until new evidence is found.

Cadaver dogs can be highly reliable.

But a lot of that simply depends on consistent documented training to prove the reliablity and false alert rates of the team in question and, of course, those rates should be calculated for problems blind to the handler and known distractors in the mix.

The proposed basic standards which I believe are international in flavor are on swgdog.org and this site also has the formulas used to calculate reliablity and false alert rate.  Nothing radical there, pretty much a consensus of existing standards that have been in use for years.  For something like this, I would want to know the thresholds the dogs could detect - one is expected to document quantity[grams up], age and type of source in their training logs.

Nobody can comment on a specific case if they dont know the details and if they do, they should not be commenting on a public forum because these kind of things can mess up court cases.

Demos, certification tests, training records.... a question I would have  in England is the use of pig instead of human remains for training. My understanding was that training on actual human material was not allowed over there. Scent is similar but not the same and in the states pig is used as a distractor because there are wild pigs in the woods, pig farms, etc.. But it is not likely there were pigs in those places

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I must say though that my dog does not hit on me, my clothes, etc when I work with my training materials.  This woman would have a real problem with bloodborne pathogens if she is careless enough to be transferring cadaver material to her clothing and her childs toys.. But I can also say I have seen towels saturated with blood then washed in oxi clean and bleached alerted on by cadaver dogs. But not stuff that had not had actual contact.  

Good morning Nancy, thank you for your information. . No one has ever come forward to say that this person has ever been in contact with dead bodies. The case is complex  to say the least. The only 'proof ' that the child was abducted is the parents 'say so'. There is not one shred of evidence of an abduction .The only suggestion that the child is dead are the dogs reacting to cadaver in several places and the parents and their friends statements  do not match the night in question with the childs disappearance. It is all circumstancial. Again there was not enough evidence from forensic to back up the dogs findings. This is now a 'cold case'.The parents still insist the child was abducted and is alive.

I am currently training my dogs in cadaver recovery and I can tell you there are many sides to the coin. The dogs are absolutely reliable! The person I train with was involved in a high profile case where unfortunately during the supression hearing, so anything the dogs would have been able to offer was not allowed. Long story short, every place the dogs hit, was in fact confirmed by the defendant to be a location he hid the body. Now these dogs hit on areas that the body was kept for a number of years and then moved. Cleansed, bleached, and pinesol used, dogs still hit! I do believe that training and keeping logs if of the utmost importance! Blind problems should be set up regularly to make sure the dog is always correct, the handler however should ALWAYS trust the dog, as you do NOT EVER want them to false indicate, which could be done if you do not trust your dog. I know a person whose dog could detect a couple drops of blood, I mean the dog could find trace amounts of human blood, etc. When dogs are ready to certify, they are proffed off of dead animals and such, and most of the people I work with do NOT use psuedo scents and never will.
So I guess what I am saying is, without drawing any conclusions, is that there is more to the story than is being told. Especially if both dogs are hitting in the same areas consistantly. Other avenues should be explored.

Thanks Shrabe I will come back to you to discuss this further.

Good evening Shrabe, I have a little time and would like to discuss this further. Would you explain to me in more detail the use of 'pseudo scents' and why you and your people are against them?

The case as I have mentioned is now a 'Cold case'...The events took place 3 years ago..the dog found blood in the apartment and the parents said they think their child may have had a nose bleed.

If for example the dogs went back now to the same apartment after 3 years would they still be able to pick up cadaver?

The problem is Shrabe the lack of damn forensic ,without that there was nothing to take the case further.

Dogs cannot talk but they also do not lie.

Ironside,
 
 I am glad you came back to this topic, I find it fascinating, and I love to speak to others who are passionate about cadaver detection dogs and what they bring to the table.
 As for pseudo scents, the people I train with question the ability to actually recreate the scent of a decomposing body. There are studies being done right now with regard to the chemical composition that makes up the cadaver scent. I apologize as I don't have the study in front of me, but I believe there are over 400 chemicals that have been identified thus far by this researcher that a dog can detect. I would be hard pressed to believe that those chemicals could be recreated accurately! I do realize that some states will not allow actual remains to be used, I am fortunate that in my home state the use of human remains is allowed as it is not illegal to possess human remains, it is illegal to conceal a corpse, and in my opinion the use of actual decomposing tissue is the best way to accurately train a cadaver dog. There are also studies being done in Germany with regard 2scent andthe accuracy of the dogs. They are using carpet swatches that have sat next to, but not touching cadaver. One swatch was 2 minutes and the other  for 10 mins. They kept the samples for a number of years, I believe 3, after that time they tested the cadaver dogs reliability in detection of cadaver scent.
ull of porous entities, any of which could attract and hold scent. I also work with a woman whose dog was used for finding trace evidence, ie strands of hair, drops of blood, and this dogs work has been confirmed by forensics, and state crime labs. It is quite possible that the child had a nosebleed at some point, and the dog is detecting that. Cadaver is vastly different though, as it is decomposing tissue, so would have a vastly different odor.
 I hope the discussion keeps going, as I would love to see more people get involved in this discipline, I think there is a huge need for it, and I hope that one day soon, cadaver dogs will get the same recognition as drug dogs do!

Traci

 

Hi Shrabe...there were two dogs involved in this case Cadaver and the other for human blood...I have seen video footage of the cadaver dog entering the apartment in question. The dog (cadaver)was very excited when entering.  The dog reacted to two hot spots 1) behind the sofa....and  2) in a corner of the parents bedroom....cadaver also on some of the mothers clothing...outside under the window...The missing childs toy...which the mother washed at least 3 times??????

The trunk of the car and side of the drivers door plus key fob...  the parents hired this car three weeks after they claim she was abducted.


I have also seen footage of the dog reacting to the car...there were 10 cars and the dog only reacted to the parents rental car.

I for obvious reasons cannot say too much on an open blog but yes you are right there is a lot more to this case.

The srangest part of all ,are the parents and the way they speak. I will give you an example...The father 'the dogs are incredibly unreliable'....The mother 'there is no evidence that our daughter has come to any harm or that we were involved in her disappearance'...

I have seen those dogs at work and when they react to a hot spot it is the most amazing sight.

Please keep posting as I am eager to learn everything about their work.