Showline at BSP - Page 3

Gustav excellent point. Just because you have 1 showline female that works well does not mean she will produce well or continue to do so. I am sure there are quite a few that do work well and I know "Bohemia" kennel has a very nice showline male that is super in the work BUT will he be able to produce that.

Denise

Well I'm not an expert on show "lines" by any stretch of the imagination.  All I know is I got this female in for whelping for another breeder - really liked her (temperament, drives, nerve, "fire") and ended up with her.  Bred her three times - as with most show lines, all but one puppy went to pet homes.  The one I have is a firecracker in the work - really good and I can compare him to excellent working line dogs in his drive level, nerve strength (NOTHING bothers this dog - he is almost TOO strong in the nerve) and temperament. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/497456.html  I see his littermates regularly - only two females - and though they are pets they exhibit the same characteristics and are a "handful" for their owners - they should be working.  The other two litters (all sold as pets) owners adore them, no temperament problems, good nerves, but not worked so ???? can't really comment about that for the other litters.  The sire of my male is V-Geronimo v Olympus Schh3,KKl-1.  He is what I consider a medium-drive, medium-temperament dog but his nerve strength is solid as a rock (NOTHING bothers him) and his temperament is supurb.  The dam (my female) is V-Gobi v Agassiz Schh1,KKl-1 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/448176.html - she may be a fluke herself - look at her pedigree and see for yourself - but she can produce the same qualities I love about her in the work.  Have not had luck breeding her for the last couple years (just bad luck) but she is bred now to my working line stud V-Bandit v Wolfsheim Schh3,KKl-1 - and though I didn't think I would go working X show cross (did it because she's had trouble getting pregnant, needed to use one of my own males this time to get it done) - I think the litter will be outstanding for working.  Excited about it in fact.

molly
Eichenluft
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

Molly - those lines go back to Amico Belgier,  Mark v. Haus Beck, Uran Wildsteigerland, Fedor Arminius and the Q litter Arminius.  These dogs could work - these are the ones I had in more concentration on my dogs that could work.  I like the looks of your female, she has some personality from the picture.  If you could look for a male with those dogs in it that he himself was a proven work ethic dog, you might have some showline pups that would be interesting.

Both Bandit and she are nice dogs - the cross might work especially if you imprint them from the git go. It won't be nerves or temperament, but a desire to really stay on the bite and be high enough drive to work for SchH.  None the less, they should make good dogs for other work also.  Just my guess - let's try to remember in a year to  touch base on them :)

I happen to own the sire of Molly's male--it always takes two. While not a maniac, my SL Geronimo vom Olympus (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/124262.html) has drive as high as any that I could handle and has never disappointed me in his work, as a companion, and as a producer. When I was training him with Jim Dobbs, Jim noted that he was the rare dog who possessed genuine aggression. In fact, he has produced some civil aggression.
 
Fortunately, I bought Geronimo and his older half-brother, Zeek vom Olympus (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/124258.html), from Inger Olavson--a breeder who really values the work ethic, has owned a WDA National SchH3 Champion, and has represented the WDA on the World Team several times.

I was indeed honored that Inger thought highly enough of the grandsire to my boys, Alex vom Nord Rasen (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/124258.html), to breed to him daughters of VA Zamb Wienerau, Fanto Hirschel, and Hanno Wienerau. As difficult as it is to find homes where pups will be shown/trained/titled, all of these  breedings produced one or more titled dogs.
 
From Alex's dam, Orlanda vom Kirschental (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/87571.html), I have known six generations from this family on this side of the pond. Alex's sire, Rondo von Batu (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/11674.html), was V-rated in trials and was a competition dog for his owner. In fact, Rondo stood at stud for a while with the legendary Gernot Riedel and produced Malka Nagel's Cora von Alcazar Zwinger (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/66694.html) who was a top producer for Eisfeld kennels in Germany.

Interesting, Malka has bred to both Geronimo and Zeek and is bringing a Cora great-grand-daughter for breeding to Zeek tomorrow.

Yes and I repeat that the 100% show line male that I am working now, from Gobi and Geronimo - is SUPER in the work - he will be titled, he will be at National Schh3 level, and in my opinion he already stands right alongside top working dogs in temperament, drive and nerve strength.  If there is one thing I would say about him if someone asked me what I don't like about him - it would be he is not very affectionate - he is a very serious, very driven dog for the work.  Not really a "pet".

molly

After having had SL (both American and German) who could really work for over 40 years, I don't believe that I'm the "lone ranger". My point is this: there must be more than a handful of people like me who train and fine-tune our dogs to be the best that they can be and have to apologize to no one. However, I haven't had the personal nerves required for podium level aspirations and work.

I have a showline male that I am titling right now. He is not your typical showline either. He will do SchH, PSA or body suit work. He has ROCK solid nerves and is very animated in his obedience and serious in his bite work. He is a solid tracking dog.

Would I own a show line now?? NO. I am more into the Czech and DDR dogs now. I just dont like what the showlines have become.

Here is my male Aiko....
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/454230.html

Here's a video of my showline dog working - http://video.yahoo.com/watch/6511047/16882358

molly
Eichenluft
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

"[...] I don't believe that I'm the "lone ranger". My point is this: there must be more than a handful of people like me who train and fine-tune our dogs to be the best that they can be and have to apologize to no one. However, I haven't had the personal nerves required for podium level aspirations and work."

I agree with this.  I have a show line I'm doing SchH with.  It doesn't really bother me or impress me; I don't feel I have to explain or justify my dog or my reasons to anyone.  I did not go out and get a show line dog because I felt I had something to "prove" about my dog or his pedigree.  I'm new to the sport and learning, but when we are training or working at club it's just handlers and dogs, there's no one standing around nit-picking about the show dogs or the working line dogs.  EVERY dog in our group is different.  In some ways my show line is better than the working lines and vice versa.  No dog we have is really comparable anyway.

I do feel that there is a big difference between owning/handling dogs and breeding dogs.  I feel that as an owner/handler, I have the luxury of working the dog in front of me and bringing that dog to his highest potential.  But I feel that breeders have much more responsiblity to take into consideration all the genetics and lines behind the dog and any possible pairing.  Hopefully that makes sense.  I guess what I mean is I am more than satisfied with my dog, but even if he does well and titles fairly in the sport doesn't mean he will be a good breeding dog and pass on these traits.

Lies, Excellent post!!
Molly, nice working dog that seems to be committed to the work.