REAL BITE OUT? - Page 3

A good tough dog would not out no matter what is a wrong statement.There are always exceptions to the rules but they are never the norm.You want to know if a real police dog and i say real because there are alot of police dogs and handlers are shit as well,ask Mike dhiel about Bronson,that was a real dog and ask him if that dog outed in real situation or not.

Also ask Kevin Sheldhl about his real police dog CJ.whether he outs or no. There are noumber of reasons a dog might decide not to out on an any given day.

Hans, i am more interested in finding out what would find an interesting or new method considering you have been in the game for more years than i have been alive.Have a nice one.

Clifford, you wrote:

come on guys,


well, come on Clifford....  I see you have ads for dogs for sale.  Please, let me know what training methods you use and give an actual suggestion.  How many of the dogs that you have bred are currently working as Police K9's?  Rather, than giving obnoxious comments why don't you add something usefull to the thread.  You certainly have strong opinions, I'm just hoping they are based on some actual experience.  Please, enlighten us.

A good tough dog should out from a real bite.  Every police K9 should out in all situations.  However, there are times when the dog is actively engaging a subject and is kicked, hit and assaulted.  When you add pain of an actual fight, adrenaline, fear and rage from a subject the dog also becomes enraged.  Dogs do not understand the use of force continuum and they don't understand that the fight is over when the guy complies or is handcuffed.  Those are the rules that the police handler uses, the dog's rules of engagement are slightly different(in the dog's mind).  The dog may not feel the fight is over and may decide it wants to keep fighting.   Things are not always that clear cut in an actual violent encounter for the dog.  If you understand the dog's temperament, especially the mindset of a hard, civil dog you wil be able to see my point. 

With that being said, there are some dogs that are so hard they won't out in sport work.  These may be very good dogs, but they can't be used even for SchH competitions.  This is not a training issue but a temperament issue.  So, where do these dogs go....to PD's as K9's.  Some become SWAT dogs where the out is not even trained.  Many European countries have highly trained dogs that are deployed to strictly find and engage a bad guy, there is no out.  The handler lifts the dog off when the suspect is in custody, then a muzzle goes on the dog. 

In a perfect world the dog engages on a real bite, fights hard and takes the bad guy to the ground.  The bad guy gives up then the dog outs on command and guards the suspect.  We all train for this and this is our goal.  I can tell you from first hand experience, it doesn't always go this way.  Things don't always go as planned in a dynamic, fluid, volatile real life situation.  You plan and train for all the scenarios you can think of and something on the street is always different, new and challenging.   You won't encounter this problem until you actually have a real street bite and the dog doesn't out.  Then you train and train some more, until you correct it.  The training needs to be on going and very intense at times.  The training needs to be more scenario based for police K9's and varied.  The dog needs to be exposed to new problems and given the opportunity to solve them and come out with a new learning experience and confidence.   

For those that think there dogs will out cleanly in every situation I'd like to see it.  I'm not being obnoxious, just with the experience I have I know funny stuff can happen when working with dogs.  Even the best trained dogs.  Add some fear and rage on the dogs part combined with a deteremined opponent most dogs will opt not to stay in the fight.  The ones that do, may not be so quick to out the first time when told.  The good dogs are the courageous ones that feel some fear and fight through it regardless. 

JMO,

Jim

Slamdunc, well said and informative.Thanks.Have a n ice one.

Fascinating discussion!

Jim, thank you for providing your 'real world' perspective! 

Cliford if the only experience you have is with the kind of dogs you are selling no wonder they out no matter what situation. LMAO

And I will second Jim and Gard, if the dogs outs in a real situation fast and every time, I don't think he is that much into it to begin, dog like that I would not consider calling tough, or one that I would love to have when shit hits the fans.

Let me hit on another point alot have probably missed in the debate. When training it is up to the trainer and helpers to make training as real as possible to the REAL LIFE situations that you may encounter.

For example how many have had a heated argument with the hepler in front of the dog? This is set up ahead of training with your helper. Start out with dog at side or a distance, helper approaches and one word leads to another and really gets excited and heated.

How long does it take for the dog to react? How does he react?  Does he over react? Then do it again at another time and place with adrenalin flowing shouting the hole nine yards gunfire the full meal deal.

Dogs that have to think and react are well trained dogs. Dogs that just have to bite are not.

Have I trained tough dogs that will kill you if you cant handle them? Yes

Have I been ate up with hundreds of punctures? Yes

Are all dogs capable of being 100% contoled ? No

The next Question is for the trainer to decide can I and will I make sure that I wont train a dog to attack that I cannot control?

In the 1960's and 70's dogs did not qualify for the department that where not civil to non threatning civilians.

He would flunk out if he was considered a threat to the general public.

Soundness and guts generally come together in the same package.

Crazy out of control and weak  minds generally come together in the same package.
just my thoughts, mahon

out mean out


Well, indeed, it does  usually.  What I find amazing is that many, even after 40 plus years in it, haven't figured out that bite means bite.