"Black" puppy - update with photo

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by BlackthornGSD on 28 October 2009 - 22:10

What about the dam's pedigree? Could it come from there?

According to the original poster, the dam is solid black. The only color gene she can pass to her puppy is the black one. So, in order to appear black, the puppy needs TWO black genes--one from each parent. Doesn't look possible for the dad to have a black gene to pass on. However, he does have the sable gene--which means the pup could be sable with black recessive, probably with some sort of heavy pigment coverage modifier (which we don't really have well identified in the GSD).

by Ryanhaus on 28 October 2009 - 23:10

Love to see what color he turns out to be in a year from now, some of my dogs are still getting different colors poping

up everywhere and one has had a big color coat change at 3 years old...

I'll go with Black sable, his marking can't be considered faulty unless, alot of white, liver or blue.

He could be that color discribed in some German pedigrees as just black & brown.

by Bucko on 29 October 2009 - 00:10

My guess is BLACK -- the browning is from excessive SUN.

He is very impressive for a 4 month old if that is really his age.

by JRANSOM on 29 October 2009 - 01:10

I don't think it's from excessive sun. If so, wouldn't you think it would cover more of him instead of just those points? I think he is a very, dark black sable. But I'm curious about the hairs as Oso pointed out previously. Can most be all the hairsbe black and a portion be sable?

by oso on 29 October 2009 - 02:10

This really is an interesting case - as I said I have not any prior experience with blacks, but when this female came for breeding I did a little research on the genetics and as per Prager's coment, it did not seem to make sense. According to the breeder most of the puppies in this litter were solid black, one was bicolor and one normal sable - unfortunately only two survived, this dark one and the sable. The mother of the puppy has had one previous litter with a different sable male - also showline - this one: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/555566.html - I think if anything even less likely to have the black allele than my male - but all the puppies were solid black. I tried to register the female a while ago, but I gave up as it was taking too long to go back several generations of dogs not registered here. But I will maybe give it another go and if I succeed will post the link here. I do not know where the black came from originally....................................................... Bucko, this puppy was born on July 5, so is a few days short of 4 months. He does not spend too much time in the sun. Blackthorngsd comment is interesting and possibly the most likely scenario here?

by oso on 29 October 2009 - 02:10

Another strange thing, going back to Blackthorn's post- in other litters with black and tan females the father of this puppy has produced both sable and black/tan puppies, therefore he must have the black/tan allele and therefore could not have black allele as well right? the same also applies with the other sable male she bred with (I have seen one of these pups recently, now a year old, definitely solid black).

by VomMarischal on 29 October 2009 - 02:10

JRANSOM, according to an article I read, the sable could be in some areas and not others. Look at the middle paragraph:
(Sable dogs are actually agouti)

Agouti

Recent studies show that the agouti signal peptide (ASIP) competes with melanocyte stimulating hormone (MSH), which produces eumelanin pigments, to bind on the melanocortin receptor and must sometimes win. Both the E allele and E^m allele are responsive to agouti or melanocortin binding in dogs. However dogs that are e/e have a mutation in MC1R and produce only phaeomelanin. In such dogs, the agouti genotype doesn't affect their coat color, which will be some shade of cream, yellow or red.

To further complicate things, agouti has more than one promoter which seems to signal where on the body, or even on individual hairs, each pigment is laid down. Roughly, one seems to control ventral or belly color and another dorsal or back color. The simplest way to "see" this is on a black and tan dog......the back is black from eumelanin pigment being made and the belly is tan or red from phaeomelanin pigment being made. In some dogs banded hairs are produced over parts of the body. With certain genotypes, the coat color changes from birth to adulthood, usually being born darker and then lightening.

We have recently mapped the agouti gene to dog chromosome 24. This gene undoubtedly has several alleles, but how many is still an open question. Some have been identified using DNA studies and tests for agouti phenotypes in some breeds will become available soon. Although several books attempt to state the dominance hierarchy of the agouti alleles, since no breed has all the alleles, it is not possible to know this for sure. Most books suggest that it is a^y > a^w > a^t > a. Breeding data and DNA data from our collaborative study with Dr. Greg Barsh's group at Stanford supports this. However the data confirm pairwise dominance/recessive relationships in different families.......not the entire hierarchy in one family. Further DNA studies to determine which patterns are under the control of this gene in the dog are in progress.

by Justk9s on 29 October 2009 - 02:10

Oso,
I love him.. He makes my black sable looked washed out.. lol He has awesome bone for his age also.

Be sure and keep taking picturesand posting them. He is awesome. Good luck with him..

KIM

www.justk9s.com

by BlackthornGSD on 29 October 2009 - 03:10

According to the breeder most of the puppies in this litter were solid black, one was bicolor and one normal sable - unfortunately only two survived, this dark one and the sable.

That's not possible if the female is black and thus can contribute only the black gene. Not if the breeder knows how to ID the colors of puppies. The sire can't produce sables and bicolors and blacks--that would require 3 color alleles instead of the normal 2.

So, either your dog isn't the father of all these puppies, or there's a color mutation going on (including the possiblity of a "chimera" where one parent has 2 sets of DNA), or the breeder doesn't know that all puppies are born much darker than their adult color and doesn't know how to ID puppy colors. (Or the female is really bicolor and not black. And how in the world did she get that dark coloring with that pedigree??? The colors just aren't in those bloodlines, are they?)

To further complicate things, agouti has more than one promoter which seems to signal where on the body, or even on individual hairs, each pigment is laid down.

This just means that, for example, the tan areas on a sable are not banded hairs. So, the agouti banding location is determined by (or overruled by?) the pattern.

by oso on 29 October 2009 - 04:10

I did not see the puppies when they were born so its difficult to comment, maybe he was mistaken in identifying the colours, but I can be 100% that sure that my male was the only father, and I am sure the same is true of her previous litter with a different sable male (all black puppies). The female is not bicolor and I have seen a son from the previous litter, definitely solid black as well. I got a little further with registering the female, but its very slow with my dial-up connection and I do not have complete details, I may be able to finish tomorrow. I know the female's mother was also black but her parents appear to be black/tan??? Anyway, will keep posting as he develops!

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