X-ray opinions please - Page 3

Doesn't look like there will be more posts on this tonight, at least not that I'll be able to check, so I'll go ahead and tell you, and any of you that want to comment (agree/disagree) can add more.  Her results - mild (unilateral left)! 

sachsen, i remember seeing your pics.  you didn't get any comments?  that's a shame.  seems like folks always have plenty of comments for stupid stuff and vulgar jokes.  anyway, i will share a few thoughts here and see if others agree or disagree.
***the spine.  when someone posts an xray here, very often the first thing i look at is the spine.  not a lot can be determined by the traditional view, but sometimes the space or lack of it between the vertabrae can be an indicator of potential problems.  in the case of your dog, i am seeing too many xrays seeping thru the space at the top of her pelvis.  the more xrays, the darker the exposure.  the denser the object, the lighter the exposure.  this is one area i would definately keep an eye on.  maybe do a rexray in 2 yrs and possibly a full spine at that time.  your girl looks like she might benefit from dropping 5-10 lbs.  i am seeing to much soft tissue in that area and could possibly be the source of the problem.
***sockets.  in the vast majority of xrays, if there is a problem, it is usually in the shape/formation of the sockets.  the better formed sockets fit around the heads more like a cup.  the poor ones are like a ball sitting on a saucer.  this is where some folks may disagree with me, but we have to go back to the womb here.  what the sire and dam have to offer in the way of genetics is important, but equally important, IMHO, is the health, condition and nutrition of the dam prior to, during and immediately after pregnancy.  her body must be capable of trasmitting the necessary nutrients to the forming puppies.  if this is insuffient in any way it will appear in the offspring.  for the most part, we only xray hips, elbows and spines for diagnostic purposes.  if we xrayed the entire dog on a routine basis we would be aware of malformations in other areas, but since we only do what seems to be the most problematic areas, that is what we are aware of.  i am of the opinion that a great many of our structural problems stem from inadequate diets and digestive/metabolic problems beginning with the dam and certainly in the puppy itself.  the acetabulum/sockets cannot possibly form properly if the correct nutrients are not present to do the job.  your female is aflicted with the common malady of sockets being too shallow or flat.
***the heads and necks.  i commented on molly's post in regards to this.  i really really don't like to see long necks.  long necks in combination with flat sockets pose a big problem.  awkward movement produces excessive wear.  hips and spine.  the length of the femur necks in your dog appear to be normal to short.  and the heads appear to be mostly normal.
so the biggest problem with your girl is the malformation of the acetabulum.  not an insurmountable problem.  the biggest thing (again) is to keep the excess weight off.  keep them lean.  let the last one or two ribs show.  good muscle development actually helps to hold the dog together.  keep the dog fit.  once again, i am of the opinion that allowing the dog to just lie around and not be active is more apt to cripple them than activity.  ofcourse, you have to use good sense here.  determine what level is appropriate for your dog.  based on these xrays, i would allow this dog any normal activity except jumping and i would definately keep an eye on her spine.
pjp

sachsenwolf 's X ray.
 The left leg is not positioned properly. The knee caps must form "bull's eye". Howeverm, in this case, the knee cap of the left leg  points totally outward   which will make the hip look much, much(!) worse. The R leg is also pointing slightly outward.  I would not accept this x ray from a vet for OFA.  Digital or not.
Prager(Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

Good post pjp! 

I do disagree with mild on these hips - I think they should pass.  Perhaps the OFA guys had bad mexican food that day or something LOL - but I do find it interesting that they rated the mild "unilaterally left" and that is the leg with knee not turned in properly.  Interesting, that.

molly

Opinions on this xray please?

OFA goes on only what they see. They will not assume that the hip would look better if it would be positioned better.  That is ultimately on the owner of the dog to educate itself and insist on PERFECT  x ray from the vet.
Prger (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

Prager,
So what you are saying is that this is a bad xray (because of the incorrect positioning)? Thank You, for your reply

Jim

Thank you pjp!  I love how you and Molly share information that is often overlooked.  I understand proper positioning and laxity, and somewhat the shape of the head, socket, and neck, but I never thought the spine was part of the equation.  So the area of concern is the dark gaps between her vertabrae above her pelvis, that they are too large and transparent?  She's lean at 65 pounds and you can easily feel all of her ribs, but I understand losing 5 pounds would put less strain on her... although I think my friends would think she were being starved (she's likely one of the leanest dogs they know, haha).   Prager - that's a good point that they don't speculate that the hips would be better had the positioning just been a bit better.  I really wish I had a vet willing to work with me... anyone know one who takes pride in their positioning, near the Adirondacks in NY??

I'm going to post another picture with a few questions (especially for Molly and pjp) about the conformation of the joints: Is a large round head (w/ narrow neck) preferred over the smaller heads you usually see in x-rays?  Does the shape have to do with age (gets smaller as they mature)?  And, the edge of the socket shouldn't be rounded, correct?  This was a 6 month old pup that I no longer have, but received pre-lims of fair.  If you know of any websites where they explain all the different points to look for on the hip conformation, please point me to it!  Thanks guys!!!

There are several x rays here by now. Thus let me clarify.
I was talking about . 
The  "vhsdogs" x ray  which says "Dr. Demers" on it is not aligned properly;  meaning it is not aligned with the ages of the x ray film which makes it harder to use these edges as a points of reference to evaluate the skeleton's proper positioning. (Otherwise positioning seems to be OK.)  That is not that bad though. What is not good is that the x ray is fuzzy and it is hard to read the detail's of the joint. Every x ray (Same as in quality B$W photo) MUST HAVE ON IT TOTAL BLACK AND TOTAL WHITE PARTS.  Which this x ray does not have and that is why the quality is not good enough to pass proper judgment on detailes obscured by the "fuzzines". For comarison look at the exposure of the "sachsenwolf 's X ray" above which has perfect B&W contrast. (Digital picture).  According to the conversation we have had over the phone you said that the vet evaluated these hips as borderline to mild displastic. I would then ask him to point the parts which would indicate that. I do not see such problem. The  femur is nice and deep in the socket,  the sickle shaped line between the ball and the socket is not widening at all all the way around the socket . I do see some Morgan lines though. The rest is fuzzy. I would say that these hips are OFA GOOD and when the x ray is developed properly then it could be even better. The important thing is that if you are sending x rays to OFA do not make them guess. If you make them guess they will always err on the side of worse reading. If this is a warranty on the pup issue and dispute, then I personally always insist on the x ray being send to me for evaluation of a proper positioning before they are send to OFA for final judgment in the dispute.
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

 

To Sachsenwolf:

x raying the dog at 6 months is a problem because the x rays are not able to "see" cartilage. Pup at that age gas a lot of Cartilage instead bone. We need more ossification in order to evaluate the hips. The hips at 6 mo could and probably will get better with age. That is why ,IM,  this pup got "OFA FAIR .That is why we xray dogs for OFA at 2 years.  Between 2-3 years hips usually do not change much. After 3 years they may get worse of stay the same. I like the hips to stay same until about 7 -8 years even so they are OFA good. That is better then OFA excellent at 2 years and getting progressively worse as the dog gets older.

"Thumb" necks are not good> It is caused by thickenning of the neck. (Problem ) Ball on the neck is good . This is truth only if the bones are totaly ossified.
 

Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com