Working dog question??? - Page 3

Thanks Adi, your opinion is appreciated and I can understand in a percentage perspective that the working lines make the grade in Schutzhund over the showlines.

It's interesting to note that where I am in Australia, showlines which are mostly German showline origins are worked in large numbers as Police K9's, security patrol dogs, many in Schutzhund but the majority of high scoring dogs are Malanios more so than the GSD's. It seems that more trainers in Australia than other parts of the world select showlines to work with although are generally dogs produced from specific showlines that are bred to maintain workability. There are plenty of useless pet breedings in Australia also, but surprisingly many showline breeders producing some good workable dogs. 

Adi Superglue, that sounds like the perfect GSD.       Good luck with your new business!  That can and does keep a person very busy.     The new boy is cool, very strong!   I realized quickly I didn't want to goof him up so am having Les work him for me.  He likes me well enough I almost have to hide during OB or he is looking around for his treats from "mom".  LOL  I will continue to train and learn with my Boa.  She's my Superglue.  LOL

To Jeseph:

"I am debating which DVD set is better between about 3 or so different ones as my goal is to get some basic ideas on how to imprint/train a puppy or at least get it ready for training as it grows older." - Tell me which sets are you debating about, I'll try to offer some insight, I have likely seen them or own the all.

Also, don't worry too much about "working" with the puppy when it comes to you at 8 weeks. Many people have simply ruined, simply messed up perfectly good puppies by doing too much with them too soon. Drill Sargeants come to mind. They get the puppy at 8 weeks and start yelling: Platz! Fuss! I said Fuss! Fuss, dammit!!! The poor puppy  goes into avoidance (where he doesn't want nothng to do with you and becomes a pet).

You want to do imprinting? Sure, no problem. You need to remember 3 words: Gentle, consistent and fun. Use those 3 adjectives with EVERYTHING you do with him and you'll imprint fine.

When you get your puppy from the breeder, I have no doubt that it is a good breeder since Ace of Nike is a world class dog the puppy will already be accustomed to people, kids, maybe small animals, slick floors, started on potty training, curious, inquisitive, exploring... (Oh, on unrelated subject, 2nd most impressive thing that people from "the public" are raving about my dog is that he pees on command. lol. One of the simplest things to do. Man? Really? Your dog pisses on command? Then, I go - Andalus, go pee... The dog lifts his leg and dribbles a bit, even if he doesnt need to go again - it's a CONDITIONED response.... WOW! They are floored, like I just told them my dog can talk, weld a Ferrari engine, send an email and cook a steak... Way funny.)

Anyway... you get your puppy from the breeder. He is 8 weeks, you are a stranger, he is away from his littermates, you are eyeing each other cautiously curiously... Now what?

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Now what? Remember, gengle, fun, consistent.

Take the puppy with you, without any pressure, and let him explore around your place. Have some good treats, like cheese, or a hot dog and give him a few times, praising him. Let him sniff around a few feet from you. Gently call him to you - dog whateveryournameishavechoosen come - in a happy voice. He comes to you - bam - he gets a treat.

Hold a treat above his head in close proximity. He will have no other choice but to look up and hopefuly sit down. As soon as his butt hits the groun - bam! he got a treat.

Hold a treat in front of him then lower it all the way to the ground a few inches from his nose. Hopefully, he will down. Bam! He gets a treat.

Take him to the backyard. Puppy bladders are NOT DEVELOPED like adult dogs' are - he has to pee, every hour to an hour even at night. As soon as he relieves himself, while he is going at it, praise, good pee, good boy. Do that every single time, go pee, good boy, same with poop, good poop, good boy. Every single time and soon enough you will condition a response. The dog will have his "toilet spot" in the backyard and he will hit the ground running once he is there.

He is going to pee "like a girl" (if he is a boy), until he is about 17-20 months of age, then he will lift his leg, first awkwardly (his aim will be terrible), then better and better... Pretty soon, he'll be like a Spiderman with web slinging... But, that is too far in the distant future to be worried about for now.

More on imprinting... You probably see a pattern with everything I have written so far. You are doing sit, come, down - WITHOUT any pressure, WITHOUT any commands, without anything but having fun with your puppy. That is imprinting. Later on, you will pair it with the word, and later later on, at the sound of word alone the dog will do the command.

Then, take him out to the backyard... Slice hotdog thinly, so it's like dimes. Walk a few feet and sprinkle the hotdogs int he grass. He'll hit the ground runnning and ACTIVELY sniff them out, search for them, nose deep looking for the treats. That's tracking 101 for puppies!

So, you don't do nothing that has any structure to it, rules etc... you are just playing with your puppy. He will think you are one swell guy!

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Every activity I described last no more than 2 minutes. Puppies have an attention span of  a gnat and you don't want him to get bored. You want him to be a kid in 6 Flags with you runnig the show - all fun all the time.

You have to get him a crate and teach him time out, so he can go in there and contemplate about life, write a poem... think deep philosophical thoughts... Just kidding. Crates are very important, dogs crave structure, everything has to be blck and white since dogs, all dogs and puppies especialy hate gray areas - hence consistency is most important. If you are not consistent about something, they get confused... well, I could do this yesterday and now I can't what the hell? Inconsistency brings confusion - confusion brings uncertainty and uncertainty brings unreliability, hesitation etc... since he is thinking, should I do this or what...

Socialization with humans and other dogs...

No socialization with other dogs, except most calm, sweet, non agressive dogs you can get that you know will not nip at a puppy, try to dominate him or act agressive. As a general rule, for me, no interaction with other dogs AT ALL.

Humans... There is a period in puppy life between 12 and 16 weeks that is a fear period, it is just a stage in their life. I would take the puppy everywhere. Plant your ass in front of Albertsons, HEB, Academy, Home Depot or whatever store you got there and stay there. Anybody who wants to come by and say a few words to the pup (of course, heavily supervised by you, no weirdos, screaming kids, agressive people etc... ) anybody can - especially nice kids.

Do that every day for 2 weeks if you can.

Afer 5 months of age all interaction with strangers stop till the dog is an adult, or as you deem appropriate, but not as before with anyone or everyone.

A lot of single guys out there realized that a GSD puppy is way better chick magnet that anything and everything they can ever come up with, us married guys just suck it up and have fun with the dogs.

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Playing with the rag

One of the most important aspects of imprinting and developing puppy drive is playing a GENTLE tug of war with him, 2 times a day every day.

A rag tied to a rope on a stick that you are holding is the best for small puppies of that age. YOu pay together as a team, you tease him and make erratic movements with it then he chases it. You defeat it together, as a team, nevermind that you are holding the stick, he doesn't see it that way, he sees only what's in front of him.

Most important - puppy ALWAYS wins. Every single time, he wins the battle and together you defeated the evil rag. Let him shake it, carry it around proudly, bring it to you... the game begins again.

At the height of the game when he is so excited replace the rag with some tidbits and food and take it away. Always make him wanting more, and always quit when you are ahead. 2 minutes or 3 monutes rag work at a time max, 2 times a day.

When he gets a little older 3 or 4 months, you can increase the time and intensity of tug or war some.

Between 4 and 6 months the puppy will start teething. His puppy teeth will fall off on their own and be replaced with "real" adult teeth. No rag work and tug of war at this time, introduce a ball on a rope or something else he can chase, no tug or war. If he is whinning and teething really bothers him get a towel, soak it in water, let it freeze overnight in the freezer and let him suck on it, it'll ease the pain some. Susualy, working line puppies are pretty tough and he will act normaly during this period, but again no ragwork, or your'll have a bloody rag and maybe weak bites may develop which you may or may not be able to correct later.

Take him hiking, chase a ball, sprinkle food on the ground and let him track, but minimal to none ragwork.

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Feeding your dog

Whatever your breeder was feeding the puppy before you got it, continue using that food for a little while.

Most pet food is shit, there are a few brands that stand out as good, wholesome, nutritional. I used a bag of what the breeder was feeding before the puppy got to me, then I switched to a brand called Solid Gold for puppies. Every Petco should be selling it.

Warning. It is high in protein so feed exactly as much as they say on the bag. Do not make the same mistake and give him more, like I did, so the puppy will grow faster and develop what is called Pano (real name is panosteitis). That means, his limbs grow faster than the rest of the body and bones could do to catch up and he will start limping. My puppy developed pano for precisely that reason, feeding him more than I should, so chalk that one up to me, although my reasoning at the time was that he was so active, and he was, that he should get "a lil extra". I was wrong.

Just give exactly as they say on the bag, add a little plain yoghurt, maybe a litle garlic, excellent flea reppelant and he should be fine. Maybe from time to time a little bit of ground beef to shake things a bit.

After a while... when the puppy is aout 5 or 6 months, many people do it earlier, I can only speak from my experience... you can start introducing raw food, if you are so inclined (you should, really).

Are you a hunter? Got a deer lease? Go fishing? You are in Texas, you gotta, or at least know somebody who does. Venison, raw fish, your puppy will love it all as an equal opportunity chow gobbler.

I have met many people with GSDs that are really puzzled when I tell them he eats raw, they feed Eukanuba, or some shit like that. I just shake my head... Dude, you have been giving cereal to your dog all his life, he wants a friggin' steak!

Chicken legs, chicken necks, chicken intestines, turkey necks, tuna fish from the can, mackarel from the can, ground beef, beef knuckle bones, chicken gizzards... that's what your dog REALLY, REALLY wants.

Don't worry about him being able to "deal" with it. His jaws are strong and he'll be breaking those bones like pretzels and cocktail peanuts.

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Now... since he will be a strong working dog, keep in mind that soem destruction of the property is bound to happen.

You can pretty much say goodbye to your garden hoses, plastic buckets, shoes, patio furniture, kid toys, t shirts, gloves, various stuff you leave in the backyard with the dog unsuprevised will be pulverized... That's just the way it is, working GSd puppies have a burning desire to chew, chew, chew everything, anything, anytime, anywhere, including your ankles, your pants, your hands, anything.

You can do "redirection" if you don't want him to destroy something - he WILL destroy it, by focusing his attention on the rag, or a ball or something that you choose to sacrifice.

My dog is 18 months now... in GSD circles he is considered a "teenager". He is no longer a puppy, but he is not adult yet either. He just destroyed my son's plastic bucket that he plays with int he sand int he backyard. Why? Cause it was there.

Anything else you need to know, ask.

The rest of your questions...

"I also would like to see something on getting the BH as I believe you had said that is the first obstacle so I would like to know specifically what I would need to train the puppy on as well as what is expected etc."  --- Sure. To see what BH looks like, what do they do and how, go to this link: http://www.dvgamerica.com/04BHRules.pdf  - This is from the organization called DVG. It is the same as WUSV etc... but it is a separate organization from them. They have all regions in Germany competing and 1 region in North America. Schutzhund is Schutzhund, doesn't matter what organization.

Oh, also, when somebody asks you - Why Schutzhund, why not IPO? It's pretty much the same thing, 99%, but. While WUSV is a German Shepherd only event and governed by WUSV and SV, IPO is governed by FCI (another dog organization) that is open to all breeds. German Shepherds compete at it too, but all other breeds so as well - Malinois, Bouviers, Boxers, Dobermanns, Rottweilers etc... Although, German Shepherds and Malinois are in the majority there. The organization that is a member of the FCi in USA is called AWDF - American Working Dog Federation, all all those breed organizations are members of it like AWMA - American Working Malinois Assoc. etc... etc... To determine their "world" team that goes to their World FCI championship, they hold the USA National Trials called AWDF Nationals... Just more to confuse you...

"I have been watching several videos online and at various sites including youtube for WUSV and Masters shows and the like and have seen others training their puppy in obedience and bitework but not the tracking??? I wonder why that is?"

---Don't worry about Masters, WUSV etc... right now. Get the puppy started on fundamentals... If your puppy is of that caliber, it will be 3 or 4 years before he can reach those heights. Tracking... well, FOR ME, tracking is the ugly duckling of Schutzhund. I kind of find it useless, but I do it because I have to, it's like homework for Schutzhund, no fun like obedience and protection, but it has to be done. That is only my opinion, many, many people love tracking. If you want to learn more abut it, get Gottfried Dildei videos about it. I personaly can't stand it and my dog probably caught wind of it so he tracks half ass all the time, and he'll never be super tracker BECAUSE OF ME. If I get 85 out of it, I'd be happy, anything jore, I'd be exstatic.

"I would like to see the tracking done by various GSD's. Isnt this part of the WUSV trials as well as others?" --- Yes, of course it is. It's just boring to watch the dog walking slowly through the grass for 10 minutes, that's why you don't see much of it. However, that and obedience and dumbell retrieves is where the WUSV and Nationals are won or lost, not protection.

"Anyway I will continue to digest all I can and maybe go to the local club and watch a few times or more without the pup until I get the pup to get an idea what to expect." -- Excellent idea!

I have always been a firm believer that... If the dog has what it takes, it is ony the dog owner and the trainer that can mess up the dog or get the dog to the highest podiums possible. The more you train, the more you get out of the dog, it's pretty simple, actualy. But, that means, once you decide to go as far as you can, Schutzhund will be your only hobby, there will be no time for anything else.

To Rexy:

"It's interesting to note that where I am in Australia, showlines which are mostly German showline origins are worked in large numbers as Police K9's, security patrol dogs, many in Schutzhund but the majority of high scoring dogs are Malanios more so than the GSD's. "

--- It is interesting, but not altogether surprising. and it's not only in Australia, it is like that everywhere in the world. Why is that? I can only offer my opinion, which isn't a whole lot, but it's mine and I came up with it all by myself...

When you ask, the Joe Average Q. Public about a German Shepherd, he immediately thinks showline, black and tan, Rin Tin Tin. Why is that? Simply because there is more of them then working dogs. Take a look at this year BSP, for example, the German Nationals Bundes Sieger Prufung going on right now at this very moment. About 130 dogs entered, usualy it's between 100 and 140. In the motherland of German Shepherd dogs in the German Nationals only 130 dogs that are the cream of the crop.

The German Showline Nationals, Bundes Sieger Suchtschau - 2000 dogs, 3000 dogs...

Why is there more showline dogs than working dogs, should be a natural follow up question for me...?

Simply, you don't have to do jackshit with them, they are pets. Yeah, they have to have a breed survey  and they get some bogus Schutzhund titles (not always! Some of them do work), and they go to town. Some of those dogs sell for 50 thousand, 100 thousand dollars, their stud fees are 3000 and up, their shit puppies are 2500$ or more. They look different than the working dogs, with their letter C shaped backs, they don't work for shit (majority of them), they have the stupid, dumb expression in their face, their owners don't work them and after 4 or 5 generations they lose their ability to work.

When I say ability to work, I don't mean only Shutzhund. Work is anything that the dog does that helps and serves humans: Herding sheep is work, finding pot is work, military sentry is work, mine detection is work, therapy is work, blind person dogs are woeking dogs, avalanche search is work, so is cadaver search, search and rescue, police, tracking, heart attack, diabetes alert - all that is work. If you don't train dogs in doing that, they dumb down.

Even in Max Stephanitz time... he persoanly discovered if the dogs are kenneled all the time, not interacting with humans, not learning anything, not doing jackshit but sittign in the kennel - they lose their ability to work. Think about it. You can be the best rocket scientist in the world, for example, but what fucking good does that do, if you don't work for NASA, but sit in Alice Springs, smoke pot, drink beer and play video games... for example.

So, a lot have shifted from the days when Schutzhund was a true test of the dog's ability to prove that he is bred worthy. Like Eileen on that episode of Seinfeld, when she had to decide what guy is sponge-worthy, since she had a limited supply of contraceptives.

So, it had come down to money. The split between show and work people happened in the early 70es, like around 1971, when I was born. Before then GSD was a GSD, no difference, the dog either does stuff, or it doesn't get bred and let nature take care of it, and shit puppies are culled.


"It seems that more trainers in Australia than other parts of the world select showlines to work with although are generally dogs produced from specific showlines that are bred to maintain workability." -- Yes, of course, remember, showline or not. Once dogs are proven and genetically capable of working, train them and work them. I guarantee you, again, either showline or not, if you have 2 dogs with excellent drives, that do the work, are fine, sound and intelligent animals, goodhips and elbows, and you mate them, you